Ali or Louis. Wh

[Tiozzo]

The bum of the month club does not encompass Joe's entire resume, but that of 13 months, and is a totally misleading nickname given by a newspaper writer.

Despite its derogatory nickname, most of the group were top-ten heavyweights. Of the twelve fighters Louis faced during this period, five were rated by The Ring as top-ten heavyweights in the year they fought Louis: Galento (overall #2 heavyweight in 1939), Bob Pastor (#3, 1939), Godoy (#3, 1940), Simon (#6, 1941), and Baer (#8, 1941); four others (Musto, Dorazio, Burman, and Johnny Paycheck) were ranked in the top ten in a different year.

How many heavyweight champions have fought 5 top 10 ranked fighters in 1 year?

good post, I'm happy to learn what it is about

I don't know that much about Louis career, that's why I didn't really break it down

[Tiozzo]

Louis has the second best resume at HW of all time, questioning his resume is outright stupid.

well I do admit I don't know much about his career, but I was pretty sure Ali had a better resume, but I agree on the correction about this, I was wrong

Actually Ali jabbed to the body and chest.

oh did he ? big deal, what about throwing some power punches, hooks and uppercutts, or even a straight right hand to the body following that jab, you can say what you want, my point stands here, he was a head hunter, and on the very rare occasions I saw him throw a power punch to the body, he got countered upstairs and looked stupid

how can you be the greatest when you're a head hunter, as successful as you might be ? body punching is so ****in damn important

It's insane to say he wasn't that impressive after his hiatus, considering he beat ATG heavyweights and top contenders in his comeback, arguably the most impressive wins of his career.

I disagree. He came back and struggled against Bonavena. He looked like utter ****, and he was fighting FLAT FOOTED. Then Frazier beat him senseless. Then he rematched 3 fighters he had already beaten before. He just wasn't the same fighter anymore after the hiatus. Yes, he did beat many greats, but he wasn't beating them impressively, and his great chin was a big factor in all those wins. Lying on the ropes and waiting for your opponent to empty the tank isn't the stuff the greatest would do IMO. Also Norton broke his jaw and his win streak before he regained the championship.

It doesn't damage his resume since he was far past his prime, he deserved the win over Shavers for sure anyway and the Young and Norton fights were close fights against good fighters.

Shavers was close indeed, but Young and Norton III were not.

You won't mention the Walcott fight for Louis?

I thought it was unecessary since everybody know Walcott got robbed in their first encounter.

Yet you don't mention anything about Louis' career past his prime?

I don't know enough. Retiring as champion after 25 consecutive defenses is already legendary stuff. Then he came back, and he got beat only by the very best, Charles and Marciano, while getting at least a couple of decent wins (I don't know all the fighters he faced during his comeback). But here is the thing : Louis never disgraced himself in the ring like Ali did VS Young, Holmes, Berbick and Spinks I. That's when you really see the difference between a fighter with fundamentals and textbook skills like Louis and a man who relied on speed and athleticism, Ali that is. A good modern comparison would be Hopkins and Jones.

That stuff becomes irrelevant when your past prime and he only really took unnecessary punishment when he was fully washed up.

are you sure ? why is it then that experts usually say that a fighter hurts his legacy when he fights on for too long and loses many fights, say like a Holyfield ?

Ali was washed up after the thrilla in Manila, he fought 5 more years as a shadow of his former self, Frazier III ruined him

Still no mention for Louis who did exactly the same thing, I don't see how it effects either fighters greatness anyway.



Yet he beat ATG heavyweights when his athletic abilities and gifts deteriorated. Wow you are a genius!

I have addressed these above

There isn't a right or wrong way to box, every gym you go to trainers teach different things, the only things that matter are effectiveness and what Ali did worked for him even when his gifts and athleticism deteriorated he was still able to beat ATG heavyweights and top contenders so your point is void.

I have also addressed this above

[Barn]

Most of the guys Louis beat were also in the top 10. Infact he beat more top 10 guys than Ali.

If however you are trying to say top 10 of all time, okay.

I have Louis and if anyone has Ali its fine with me.

Yeah but, Ali beat them at a higher percentage ie: more consistently.

Also I would argue the overall level of contenders was a little bit higher for Ali's era also.

The thing Louis lacks for me is a signature win, there's no Foreman, Frazier, Liston on there.

[Barn]

What does that have to do with how they rank? How is it any different? It's irrelevant. And you don't truly know whether Ali needed the money or not so you shouldn't even speak on that. Money is a big reason for why any fighters continue to fight and if you think not you're naive.



If you don't believe me maybe Ali's words will convince you. 8:29 of the video.

"You need me more than I need you."
"Well it's entirely erm........ probable."

[joseph5620]

well I do admit I don't know much about his career, but I was pretty sure Ali had a better resume, but I agree on the correction about this, I was wrong



oh did he ? big deal, what about throwing some power punches, hooks and uppercutts, or even a straight right hand to the body following that jab, you can say what you want, my point stands here, he was a head hunter, and on the very rare occasions I saw him throw a power punch to the body, he got countered upstairs and looked stupid

how can you be the greatest when you're a head hunter, as successful as you might be ? body punching is so ****in damn important




I disagree. He came back and struggled against Bonavena. He looked like utter ****, and he was fighting FLAT FOOTED. Then Frazier beat him senseless. Then he rematched 3 fighters he had already beaten before. He just wasn't the same fighter anymore after the hiatus. Yes, he did beat many greats, but he wasn't beating them impressively, and his great chin was a big factor in all those wins. Lying on the ropes and waiting for your opponent to empty the tank isn't the stuff the greatest would do IMO. Also Norton broke his jaw and his win streak before he regained the championship.




Shavers was close indeed, but Young and Norton III were not.



I thought it was unecessary since everybody know Walcott got robbed in their first encounter.



I don't know enough. Retiring as champion after 25 consecutive defenses is already legendary stuff. Then he came back, and he got beat only by the very best, Charles and Marciano, while getting at least a couple of decent wins (I don't know all the fighters he faced during his comeback). But here is the thing : Louis never disgraced himself in the ring like Ali did VS Young, Holmes, Berbick and Spinks I. That's when you really see the difference between a fighter with fundamentals and textbook skills like Louis and a man who relied on speed and athleticism, Ali that is. A good modern comparison would be Hopkins and Jones.



are you sure ? why is it then that experts usually say that a fighter hurts his legacy when he fights on for too long and loses many fights, say like a Holyfield ?

Ali was washed up after the thrilla in Manila, he fought 5 more years as a shadow of his former self, Frazier III ruined him



I have addressed these above



I have also addressed this above

By beating the best fighters. It's that simple. Your comments about "head hunting" are just stupid. Bonevena was a tough fighter who knocked Frazier down twice. Ali was the only fighter to stop him and it was after a long layoff. If you don't think Ali's wins over Foreman and Frazier were impressive than you don't know what you're talking about, plain and simple.



Also, Foreman threw every punch in the book at Ali's body. Ali focused on Foreman's head. How did that fight turn out?

[Sugarj]

Floyd was excellent but he never threw each punch with as much correctness as Louis did.

His right hand was simply not as short nor as technically correct as Louis's was...

I agree regarding the right.

Technically, Patterson's guard (particularly the higher left hand), head movement and footwork were a touch ahead for me. There were so many things he did so artistically well, hooking off the jab for example.

On the combination punching front its such a tough call. We know that Patterson had the edge in handspeed (not that its relevant in a technical sense). But I don't know.....its close. Louis's short punches have the edge.

I think Patterson is very much up there though technically. If I was training youngsters interested in an amateur boxing career/hobbie!?! ha ha, I think I'd push more towards them studying Patterson.

But just to make my stance firm, Louis was by far the better heavyweight.

[Sugarj]

Did he?

I'm pretty sure Ali beat more Top 10 guys than Louis.

Its just that the top 10 in Louis's day wasn't quite as good as the top 10 in Ali's day.

Louis certainly didn't duck anyone, his contenders were the best out there at the time.

Its just that if you take a snapshot of the top ten in many years between 1966 and 1977 there were so many superb heavyweights:

Ali
Quarry
Chuvalo
Patterson
Ellis
Frazier
Liston
Foreman
Bonavena
Norton
Young
Holmes
Lyle
Shavers

Many of these guys would give Louis a damn good fight.

[Barn]

Its just that the top 10 in Louis's day wasn't quite as good as the top 10 in Ali's day.

Louis certainly didn't duck anyone, his contenders were the best out there at the time.

Its just that if you take a snapshot of the top ten in many years between 1966 and 1977 there were so many superb heavyweights:

Ali
Quarry
Chuvalo
Patterson
Ellis
Frazier
Liston
Foreman
Bonavena
Norton
Young
Holmes
Lyle
Shavers

Many of these guys would give Louis a damn good fight.

I could actually see Liston beating Louis.

Not the Ali version of course but, the Williams version could cause ****loads of problems.

However apart from that I see no problems there to be honest. Sure there would be hard fights with them but, nothing Louis cannot handle in my opinion.

[Sugarj]

I could actually see Liston beating Louis.

Not the Ali version of course but, the Williams version could cause ****loads of problems.

However apart from that I see no problems there to be honest. Sure there would be hard fights with them but, nothing Louis cannot handle in my opinion.

Right there bud, my post was only in response to IronDanHamza who felt that Louis didn't beat as many top ten guys as Ali.

Louis of course cleaned out the heavyweight top ten of his day.

I just felt that it was important to see how much stronger the top ten of the late 60s/70s was than in Louis's day. Not that it was Louis's fault, he'd face anyone........

As for the best 60s/70s heavyweights. I'd give excellent chances of victory to the following fighters (in their primes) over Louis:

Ali
Liston
Foreman
Holmes

Although I wouldn't bet on any of these fights!!

Many of the other guys would have a chance too. Frazier was so good over 15 rounds, if Louis didn't stop him early?

Shavers and Lyle hit like freight trains, if Louis thought Schmelling's right was heavy.......

But granted, Louis deserves to be ranked higher.

[Barn]

Right there bud, my post was only in response to IronDanHamza who felt that Louis didn't beat as many top ten guys as Ali.

Louis of course cleaned out the heavyweight top ten of his day.

I just felt that it was important to see how much stronger the top ten of the late 60s/70s was than in Louis's day. Not that it was Louis's fault, he'd face anyone........

As for the best 60s/70s heavyweights. I'd give excellent chances of victory to the following fighters (in their primes) over Louis:

Ali
Liston
Foreman
Holmes

Although I wouldn't bet on any of these fights!!

Many of the other guys would have a chance too. Frazier was so good over 15 rounds, if Louis didn't stop him early?

Shavers and Lyle hit like freight trains, if Louis thought Schmelling's right was heavy.......

But granted, Louis deserves to be ranked higher.

I don't see Holmes or Foreman being as big a problem stylistically but, that's just my own personal opinion.