Marciano: alternate legacy

[Rockin']

I bet he'd pale at the thought of facing Marciano for real. ..

Not true, as a matter of fact my attitude would have been glove me up. I threw fists with current, future and past world champions. The strongest guy that I would say that I sparred with would be Dennis Andreas. The guy was like a tree stump with gloves on. I just don't find the same greatness in Rocky Marciano as the general consensus does. He was strong, he was persistant and ok, he had nice head movement when rolling in. But in this thread a resume will determine your greatness, so be it.

Marciano fights his first few fights, noticebly against decent competition judging by their records. In his 25th bout he meets Roland Lastarza, a well produced pretty boy who could box. Marciano scraps out a draw between the 3 judges cards and the referee votes 9-6 in favor of Marciano as it is reported. How you could score a 10 round bout 9-6 still baffles me.

Anyway, he fights on and eventually and knocks out favored Rex Layne. He stopped a Harry Matthews that I don't know much of and fights Jersey Joe Walcott who was trying to enjoy the title by fighting less than stellar competition after all of the long and hard fought battles that he was part of. He was at the end of his line, the time had come. Similar to a Larry Holmes vs Michael Spinks if you would.

He took out a highly touted Roland Lastarzza and then stepped in to face Ezzard Charles. Who, although he was great in his own right, was far better as a Light Heavyweight contender and champion. At Heavyweight Ezzard Charles only managed mild contention. 2 loses against Jersey Joe Walcott, 1 lose by decision the other by ko. He then loses against Rex Layne who was knocked out by Marciano 3 months prior to fighting Charles.

Marciano then fights Don ****ell, who that guy was I am clueless, and then goes on to defeat Archie Moore, who had dended his light heavyweight crown just 3 months before his bout with Marciano.

So in essense we have defenses against a well known lightheavy weight, a pretty blonde boy with some skills, another well known light heavy, who was Don ****ell and then defends against Archie Moore. Who not only knocked out by Marciano for the title but was knocked out by Floyd Patterson just a little over a year after Rocky fought him.

Plain and simple, 3 very talented light heavyweights, a pretty boy, some guy named Don ****ell and he retires after beating the 3rd very talanted lightheavy weight.. That does not sound like the greatest Heavyweight Champion resume to me. Not even close................Rockin'

[JAB5239]

Not true, as a matter of fact my attitude would have been glove me up. I threw fists with current, future and past world champions. The strongest guy that I would say that I sparred with would be Dennis Andreas. The guy was like a tree stump with gloves on. I just don't find the same greatness in Rocky Marciano as the general consensus does. He was strong, he was persistant and ok, he had nice head movement when rolling in. But in this thread a resume will determine your greatness, so be it.

Marciano fights his first few fights, noticebly against decent competition judging by their records. In his 25th bout he meets Roland Lastarza, a well produced pretty boy who could box. Marciano scraps out a draw between the 3 judges cards and the referee votes 9-6 in favor of Marciano as it is reported. How you could score a 10 round bout 9-6 still baffles me.

Anyway, he fights on and eventually and knocks out favored Rex Layne. He stopped a Harry Matthews that I don't know much of and fights Jersey Joe Walcott who was trying to enjoy the title by fighting less than stellar competition after all of the long and hard fought battles that he was part of. He was at the end of his line, the time had come. Similar to a Larry Holmes vs Michael Spinks if you would.

He took out a highly touted Roland Lastarzza and then stepped in to face Ezzard Charles. Who, although he was great in his own right, was far better as a Light Heavyweight contender and champion. At Heavyweight Ezzard Charles only managed mild contention. 2 loses against Jersey Joe Walcott, 1 lose by decision the other by ko. He then loses against Rex Layne who was knocked out by Marciano 3 months prior to fighting Charles.

Marciano then fights Don ****ell, who that guy was I am clueless, and then goes on to defeat Archie Moore, who had dended his light heavyweight crown just 3 months before his bout with Marciano.

So in essense we have defenses against a well known lightheavy weight, a pretty blonde boy with some skills, another well known light heavy, who was Don ****ell and then defends against Archie Moore. Who not only knocked out by Marciano for the title but was knocked out by Floyd Patterson just a little over a year after Rocky fought him.

Plain and simple, 3 very talented light heavyweights, a pretty boy, some guy named Don ****ell and he retires after beating the 3rd very talanted lightheavy weight.. That does not sound like the greatest Heavyweight Champion resume to me. Not even close................Rockin'

It's not the greatest heavyweight championship resume, but it's pretty good. Certainly better than *Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Baer, Charles, Walcott, *Foreman, *Liston and Patterson Three of which (asterisk indicated) I rank higher all time. I think 10 is a good all time placing for him at heavy. With all due respect bro, who did Dempsey, or especially Tunney beat who you think were better than Moore, Charles or Walcott? Tunney really has nobody but an inactive Dempsey, and Dempsey's resume is a lot of smoke and mirrors when you get down to the nitty gritty and see that he avoided his two best challengers without ever giving them an opportunity. Take away THEIR 4 best wins at heavy and they're also left with nada. Rocky pretty much cleaned out a division and did it with disadvantages in size, skills and experience when matching up against other all time greats. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I think that has to count for something. Jmo.

[Rockin']

It's not the greatest heavyweight championship resume, but it's pretty good. Certainly better than *Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Baer, Charles, Walcott, *Foreman, *Liston and Patterson Three of which (asterisk indicated) I rank higher all time. I think 10 is a good all time placing for him at heavy. With all due respect bro, who did Dempsey, or especially Tunney beat who you think were better than Moore, Charles or Walcott? Tunney really has nobody but an inactive Dempsey, and Dempsey's resume is a lot of smoke and mirrors when you get down to the nitty gritty and see that he avoided his two best challengers without ever giving them an opportunity. Take away THEIR 4 best wins at heavy and they're also left with nada. Rocky pretty much cleaned out a division and did it with disadvantages in size, skills and experience when matching up against other all time greats. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I think that has to count for something. Jmo.

5 defenses against 4 great fighters. (In no particular order) He beats some guy named Don ****ell, he beats 3 great fighters by the name Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott. They were great alright but only in the LightHeavyweight division. As heavyweights neither ever broke contender status. Throw in an a slightly slower but still viable old mongoose that defended his Light-Heavyweight title 3 months prior to fighting Marciano for the Heavyweight title. Archie Moore would go up in weight to fight Heavyweights while he held the Light Heavy crown. I'll give credit to Marciano in beating Moore but that's were the accolaids end. That's it! Nothing More to Pull From His Resume. If resumes do in-deed determine greatness than this would have to serve as a 2nd place to a few fighters. Give me a bit of time and I'll dissect and tell you what I find. ...............Rockin'

[McGoorty]

He became one of the best of all time. Period.

As for him short and crude, trust me before Bolt came along most so called trainers would have scoffed at man of his figure trying to make a name in 100M dash.

We all know what happened next. Rocky proved the same in boxing.

Now that you mention Bolt, man I love that that dude's ability, I have NEVER seen an athlete like him, the guy is a freak,..... Marciano was a freak of a different kind, but he was, some people here do NOT respect the power that Jersey Joe had, that chin on Rocky was a freak, he reminds me of a certain MW in that area.

[McGoorty]

A couple O' points

Not true, as a matter of fact my attitude would have been glove me up. I threw fists with current, future and past world champions. The strongest guy that I would say that I sparred with would be Dennis Andreas. The guy was like a tree stump with gloves on. I just don't find the same greatness in Rocky Marciano as the general consensus does. He was strong, he was persistant and ok, he had nice head movement when rolling in. But in this thread a resume will determine your greatness, so be it. I presume you mean Dennis Andries of Jeff Harding fame,.... lol, you are giving your age away.. lol... Seriously though he was a tough SOB, but Rocky would have blown Dennis out of the water. I understand boxers are a bit nutso,... I think anyone going into the ring with Marciano just don't wanna live long, but I give you kudos for courage.

Marciano fights his first few fights, noticebly against decent competition judging by their records. In his 25th bout he meets Roland Lastarza, a well produced pretty boy who could box. Marciano scraps out a draw between the 3 judges cards and the referee votes 9-6 in favor of Marciano as it is reported. How you could score a 10 round bout 9-6 still baffles me. Well nobody could explain 9-6 as a scoreline, but the re-match settled this question anyway,... now La Starza may have been a pretty boy,... but he was very good, and Ali was pretty, Oscar was THE pretty Boy (i never could stand him)

Anyway, he fights on and eventually and knocks out favored Rex Layne. He stopped a Harry Matthews that I don't know much of and fights Jersey Joe Walcott who was trying to enjoy the title by fighting less than stellar competition after all of the long and hard fought battles that he was part of. He was at the end of his line, the time had come. Similar to a Larry Holmes vs Michael Spinks if you would. Harry Matthews had more speed, more skills,... more than most things Rocky had, Harry Matthews would easily win a few ABC belts in today's era. But he was monstered by the Rock, trust me man that Rocky was far tougher than you imagine him to be.

He took out a highly touted Roland Lastarzza and then stepped in to face Ezzard Charles. Who, although he was great in his own right, was far better as a Light Heavyweight contender and champion. At Heavyweight Ezzard Charles only managed mild contention. 2 loses against Jersey Joe Walcott, 1 lose by decision the other by ko. He then loses against Rex Layne who was knocked out by Marciano 3 months prior to fighting Charles. You underate Layne too, he'd get a ABC title too, I have seen Layne fight, he only beat Charles because he was simply too bog for Ezzard.

Marciano then fights Don ****ell, who that guy was I am clueless, and then goes on to defeat Archie Moore, who had dended his light heavyweight crown just 3 months before his bout with Marciano. ****ell was an overweight Pom, but he was very heavy, he was a rugged brawler who made Rocky appear as just a MW.

So in essense we have defenses against a well known lightheavy weight, a pretty blonde boy with some skills, another well known light heavy, who was Don ****ell and then defends against Archie Moore. Who not only knocked out by Marciano for the title but was knocked out by Floyd Patterson just a little over a year after Rocky fought him. You make it sound like Rocky was this big guy, mate he was outreached by Les Darcy who was 4 inches shorter..... He is virtually only a CW with a reach that would have discouraged a LW,.... He was actually disadvantaged against the taller Charles.

Plain and simple, 3 very talented light heavyweights, a pretty boy, some guy named Don ****ell and he retires after beating the 3rd very talanted lightheavy weight.. That does not sound like the greatest Heavyweight Champion resume to me. Not even close................Rockin'

You are no doubt the man to ask, if one wants to know how to move and how to throw a left-hook, you have fortitude and all, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you automatically know history. I can really play some high-level guitar,... I can show people some tricks, but I just ain't no teacher, I cannot pass on my ability to someone else, believe me I have tried and tried, I can play the blues, but only because I can FEEL the blues as if I invented the genre (I didn't), ,most people just don't have "IT"..... cheers.

[McGoorty]

5 defenses against 4 great fighters. (In no particular order) He beats some guy named Don ****ell, he beats 3 great fighters by the name Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott. They were great alright but only in the LightHeavyweight division. As heavyweights neither ever broke contender status. Throw in an a slightly slower but still viable old mongoose that defended his Light-Heavyweight title 3 months prior to fighting Marciano for the Heavyweight title. Archie Moore would go up in weight to fight Heavyweights while he held the Light Heavy crown. I'll give credit to Marciano in beating Moore but that's were the accolaids end. That's it! Nothing More to Pull From His Resume. If resumes do in-deed determine greatness than this would have to serve as a 2nd place to a few fighters. Give me a bit of time and I'll dissect and tell you what I find. ...............Rockin'

Contender status ?????,... Charles and Walcott contender status,..???.. a typo ?... Walcott a LHW ????...... I found JAB's reply there to have been a very solid one, and JAB is/was a fighter too.... as for me, do streetfights count ?... lol... no need to answer that last bit.

[Rockin']

Now that you mention Bolt, man I love that that dude's ability, I have NEVER seen an athlete like him, the guy is a freak,..... Marciano was a freak of a different kind, but he was, some people here do NOT respect the power that Jersey Joe had, that chin on Rocky was a freak, he reminds me of a certain MW in that area.

Did Marciano punch harder than a prime 215 pound Mike Tyson, I doubt it.

Lamotta was very good in his own way but that does not make him the best ever.

People claim that Marciano fought the best and cleared out the division. Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno, Williams and then the most incredible upset, possibly of All-Time.

Now that is what I call clearing out a division and he never took more than 3 months between his defenses. The girl shows up and things get out of sync. He takes 5 months for Williams and 7 months to the defeat at the hands of Douglas.

You have to admit that Tyson cleared out the division Completely. Marciano took out 4 contenders and said that I'm done. I do not knock The Rock for hanging the gloves up but if you want to be the greatest of All-Time you don't fight 2 heavyweights and 2 Light Heavyweights for 5 defenseses and quit to be considered all-time greatest. In 2 years and 4 months Marciano aquired 5 succesfull defenses while king. In the same time frame Tyson had made 8 defenses. Getting Ezzard Charles twice could be compared to the getting the Spinks/Tyson blow-out twice. A natural Light Heavy would never be standing for too long against Tyson.............Rockin'

[Rockin']

You are no doubt the man to ask, if one wants to know how to move and how to throw a left-hook, you have fortitude and all, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you automatically know history. I can really play some high-level guitar,... I can show people some tricks, but I just ain't no teacher, I cannot pass on my ability to someone else, believe me I have tried and tried, I can play the blues, but only because I can FEEL the blues as if I invented the genre (I didn't), ,most people just don't have "IT"..... cheers.

It was a very informative reply, thanks..........Rockin'

[Rockin']

.... as for me, do streetfights count ?... lol... no need to answer that last bit.

People who fight in the streets really don't want to find somebody else who can fight to fight against. They generally go for the seemingly simple fights. If they did want to fight somebody else who could fight they would have been where Jab and I were fighting those kinds of people who could fight....Rockin'

[JAB5239]

5 defenses against 4 great fighters. (In no particular order) He beats some guy named Don ****ell, he beats 3 great fighters by the name Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott. They were great alright but only in the LightHeavyweight division. As heavyweights neither ever broke contender status. Throw in an a slightly slower but still viable old mongoose that defended his Light-Heavyweight title 3 months prior to fighting Marciano for the Heavyweight title. Archie Moore would go up in weight to fight Heavyweights while he held the Light Heavy crown. I'll give credit to Marciano in beating Moore but that's were the accolaids end. That's it! Nothing More to Pull From His Resume. If resumes do in-deed determine greatness than this would have to serve as a 2nd place to a few fighters. Give me a bit of time and I'll dissect and tell you what I find. ...............Rockin'

Arguments can be made that both Charles and Walcott are top 25 all time at heavy and their skills are undeniable, even at the times they fought Marciano. The same can't be said for Dempsey or Tunney, my man. I respect both you and your opinion, but you're off on this and I can show it by using the same criteria you use for Marciano.