Dempsey vs. Marciano

[HOUDINI563]

The Manassa Mauler (2003)

Dempsey traveled to NYC where he was to fight an exhibition with Joe Bonds. This was for a war bonds drive. When he arrived instead of Bonds the noted hwt contender Joe Jeanette was in the ring. As reported by Dan Daniels of the NY Sun this was a plot to force Dempsey to fight Jeanette. If he refused Jeanette was to insult Dempsey and hit him. Dempsey did refuse to fight Jeanette since Dempsey was fighting for nothing. All proceeds were to go to the war effort. Disgusted by this affair Dempsey went back to Philadelphia. The war bonds drive boxing commissioner Jimmy Croffith publicly apologized to Dempsey the following week.

[HOUDINI563]

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=...-txIN--------1

[travestyny]

The Manassa Mauler (2003)

Dempsey traveled to NYC where he was to fight an exhibition with Joe Bonds. This was for a war bonds drive. When he arrived instead of Bonds the noted hwt contender Joe Jeanette was in the ring. As reported by Dan Daniels of the NY Sun this was a plot to force Dempsey to fight Jeanette. If he refused Jeanette was to insult Dempsey and hit him. Dempsey did refuse to fight Jeanette since Dempsey was fighting for nothing. All proceeds were to go to the war effort. Disgusted by this affair Dempsey went back to Philadelphia. The war bonds drive boxing commissioner Jimmy Croffith publicly apologized to Dempsey the following week.

Seems to me that Dempsey got quite upset at boxers for the simple fact that they wanted to fight him. Isn't that why he said that Wills will NEVER get a shot? Because Wills was dragging him to court here and there trying to get him....*gasp*.....TO FIGHT. Rough times for the guy that Dempsey claims he wanted to fight since he became champion, huh?

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=...-txIN--------1

So....did Dempsey say he would fight any white man....and even two white men, rather than Jeannette?

Are you going to answer that question, or are you still trying for a great escape, Houdini?

Here is a nice news snippet for you in which it states clearly that he was willing to fight any heavyweight that the management of the show wants him to fight. I guess he meant any heavyweight besides Joe Jeannette....or any black heavyweight for that matter

Poor Dempsey. He would rather fight TWO white men, than Joe Jeannette.

Stick around, kid. I'll teach you something if you are willing to learn.

[travestyny]

It does not matter IF he broke a contract or not. You are so intent on degrading Dempsey you pull snippets from history and ignore the big picture as well as the details. Your efforts are laughable by those that know and understand the VERY WELL KNOWN history. Study up as what you post is little more than a joke. Wills himself was interviewed a few years before his death and he stated that IF IT WERE UP TO DEMPSEY THE BOUT WOULD HAVE OCCURRED. That’s the man himself laying no blame whatsoever at Dempsey’s feet. Again you need to either study up or stop being so disingenuous. It’s either one or the other.

1. I am not intent on degrading Dempsey. You just have your panties in a knot because you can't accept any criticism of him at all. He was a great champion. That doesn't mean he is without his faults.

2. Why won't you answer the question? Did he break a valid contract to fight "the only man that he ever wanted to fight since 1919," or not?


Any other boxer who claims to have wanted to fight a guy for 7 years or so, then there is a valid contract, then he pulls out...we'd agree that was a duck. Because it's Dempsey, now it doesn't matter to you

You're a joke, and I'm well aware that you knew nothing of these things and have so little knowledge about it, which is why you were left scrambling to find articles that don't even go into any detail about the major issue here. Maybe you should stop trying to duck the questions and answer. You might learn something.

I've got some time to teach you. But you have to be willing to learn

[Ben Bolt]

Monty Python quote: And now for something completely different …

I do like these words by trainer Adam Booth in The Ring Nov. issue:

“A fight is an artificial scenario. Normally to have a fight it’s an instinctive
thing – someone has threatened your tribe or taken your food. It would be an
immediate thing.
We have the chemicals that make us do that – the fight-or-flight syndrome.
We have adrenaline, testosterone – all these things.
But what we do in this sport and combat sports is two fellas shake hands, sign the
contract and say we’ll see each other in six weeks’ time and we’ll have a fight.
From the get-go it’s not a natural thing.”

[The Old LefHook]

Monty Python quote: And now for something completely different …

I do like these words by trainer Adam Booth in The Ring Nov. issue:

“A fight is an artificial scenario. Normally to have a fight it’s an instinctive
thing – someone has threatened your tribe or taken your food. It would be an
immediate thing.
We have the chemicals that make us do that – the fight-or-flight syndrome.
We have adrenaline, testosterone – all these things.
But what we do in this sport and combat sports is two fellas shake hands, sign the
contract and say we’ll see each other in six weeks’ time and we’ll have a fight.
From the get-go it’s not a natural thing.”

This thought shows excellent wit, sir. The idea seems somewhat original. I have not seen it on here before.

[Zmerai Khan]

Very much so, especially in the heavyweight division. Very inferior.

Dempsey didn't beat any great fighters. Marciano did. Even though those fighters were past their prime, they were still great. And with the exception of Joe Louis, they were still near the peak of their careers.

Compared to the fighters he faced north of 135, Duran beat rubbish opposition - utter tomato cans - as a Lightweight. But he's the best fighter we have on film. No one with a respected opinion denies that he's among the absolute greatest fighters of all time.

Talking about the level of competition a fighter faces is important, but it's not to be overplayed. Floyd's best opponents were Pacquiao, JMM and De La Hoya. Those were also some of his least memorable fights.

There's enough footage of Dempsey and Marciano to overlook their level of competition and accept that they were both tremendously gifted fights. It's also obvious from the footage that Dempsey was the better man. You really can't know Boxing and dispute that.

The debate between adults isn't really who's better, but how much better Dempsey's odds are.

[Zmerai Khan]

What is there to understand? He drew the color line, renounced it, and then drew it again. You seem to be making up lots of excuses. Why would he draw the color line in 1919 and then in 1921 when in his own words he said that Wills was the only man he wanted to fight since 1919? Makes no sense.

Then we see that when he had a promoter willing to get it on and a contract that was deemed valid, he bailed out.

If you want my opinion, he wasn't afraid of Wills or Jeannette. BUT...he was afraid of the possibility of losing to a black fighter. He didn't want that weighing on his legacy.

Desperation isn't a good look for you, sweetie. I know that all the girls SEEM to be doing it, but you're better than that.


Blacks were assumed inferior in many ways. They certainly weren't considered the peers of Whites in the ring. Yes, there were outliers, but the sport was undoubtedly dominated by Whites - even in the heavier weight classes. The opinion was voiced by the fighters themselves. It's not inferred from cultural norms.

That viewpoint was pretty much validated in future generations, as Blacks didn't come to dominate Boxing wholesale until after WWII: immigration from Europe plummeted; and the restrictions to exiting your caste collapsed, allowing ethnic Catholics to advance and Blacks to plummet. The educational and financial discrepancy now is greater than ever , but an Irish traveler is looking to be the best Hw and a Ukrainian is looking like the best man to ever place up gloves.


Basically Dempsey, whether or not he was willing, wasn't expected to fight Black men. I'm not sure how serious he was, once he became champion, at maintaining the rigors expected of being a fighter. He had a lot of off nights (McGregor or Fury anyone?). But he can't be questioned: he stepped up when it mattered against one Gene Tunney.

Unless you know something about Jeannette or Wills that no one else then or since hasn't, that's a whole lot more impressive than fighting a contemporary colored fighter.

[travestyny]

Desperation isn't a good look for you, sweetie. I know that all the girls SEEM to be doing it, but you're better than that.


Blacks were assumed inferior in many ways. They certainly weren't considered the peers of Whites in the ring. Yes, there were outliers, but the sport was undoubtedly dominated by Whites - even in the heavier weight classes. The opinion was voiced by the fighters themselves. It's not inferred from cultural norms.

That viewpoint was pretty much validated in future generations, as Blacks didn't come to dominate Boxing wholesale until after WWII: immigration from Europe plummeted; and the restrictions to exiting your caste collapsed, allowing ethnic Catholics to advance and Blacks to plummet. The educational and financial discrepancy now is greater than ever , but an Irish traveler is looking to be the best Hw and a Ukrainian is looking like the best man to ever place up gloves.


Basically Dempsey, whether or not he was willing, wasn't expected to fight Black men. I'm not sure how serious he was, once he became champion, at maintaining the rigors expected of being a fighter. He had a lot of off nights (McGregor or Fury anyone?). But he can't be questioned: he stepped up when it mattered against one Gene Tunney.

Unless you know something about Jeannette or Wills that no one else then or since hasn't, that's a whole lot more impressive than fighting a contemporary colored fighter.

99% of your post is off topic. The only part that was relevant is "Dempsey wasn't expected to fight Black men."

And that's not even worth responding to. Well...ok...??? Again, tell that to the crowd at MSG who called him a yellow dog for ducking Jeannette.

And if you don't think it's a shame that we never got prime Dempsey vs. Prime Wills, shame on you. Take your racist agenda elsewhere, or at least share it with someone who cares.

[Zmerai Khan]

I don't mean to blame the fighters themselves. I just have a hard time accepting the idea that colorline world champions are as much world champions as post colorline champs.

I feel like if we're going to accept the traditional lineage then we should also see the Colored lineage as its equal. Similar to how sanctioning bodies work today. Because to say Jack Dempsey was the champion of the world is simply untrue. He was champion of the chosen complexion. I understand that colored champions tend to have worse records and lesser resumes and that barring world title fights plenty of interracial fighting happened, but, there are a lot of caveats to that and I feel like Jack Johnson legitimized their lineage as much any had prior or as much as say Holmes did the IBF after.

We record the English champions as the champions of the bare knuckle era until America takes over then we go from English champions as if Ireland didn't have any or some such to recording white champions only as if blacks didn't have any. I understand recording only the premier or most coveted title or titles in the present day. The Irish did go to England to prove themselves and the blacks did want the opportunity to fight for the mainstream title, but, I feel history should have some integrity. In a time where a race is excluded the best of that race should be elevated to equal status as the best of any other race regardless of racial status at that time ensuring the former(excluded) can never be as grand as the latter(included). Otherwise it seems like we are continuing to hold a colorline when we say things like " Yeah Sam Langford you sure were something, can't rank you with the white people but I'll say nice things about you"

So because Harry Wills is not equal to Jack Dempsey on any official lineage I do not see why I should see Jack as equal to Rocky on my personal historical lineage. Part of Rocky clearing the division in a way that had never been done prior is his living in a time when that was possible. That's made less obvious by every official lineage pretending like Jack Dempsey is his equal. Jack unfortunately never got anymore chance to prove he is equal to Rocky Marciano than Harry did. He's recorded as if he has but I can't help but see that as a leftover side effect of the colorline rather than truth.

You're being pathetic. You're attempting to craft an argument that can't be made to protect an outright bias.

It's fine that you like Marciano - though the deep infatuation is super weird. But that you allow you bias to prohibit you from coming to an understanding isn't OK. In fact, you're deliberately sidestepping the truth.

The Colored Championships were wrong. We're all fine with that. But that's a facade for you. You want to have a reason to disqualify Jack. The footage plainly shows Dempsey is Marciano's superior. It also suggests Marciano would make things very difficult for Dempsey by punishing him for his deficits. But Jack simply has to be the favorite.

Your approach opens up a slippery slope that allows people to disqualify opponents in every cross-generation matchup: RJJ came from the PED Playground era.... Greb came from the NHB era.... Monzon primed before modern training methods and scientific advancement of athletes.... Floyd mayweather only fought opponents after they had passed their expiration date - and to his rules.... Ali never fought Super Heavyweights... Moore could never be the best in his era, so he plainly could never be the best period.
You can take any small truth and amplify it into something grotesque to avoid direct and meaningful debate.