Dempsey vs. Marciano

[Marchegiano]

Again...no one argues Marciano’s competition was “better”. His competition historically has been determined as “weak”. My post specifically was to address the comment that Dempsey’s competition was weak. Beating in spectacular fashion prime Jack Sharkey and Fred Fulton are prime examples. Fulton being potentially the greatest single win by any future hwt champion.

You mean you're playing devil's advocate?

[travestyny]

What we need to see is Dempsey’s court testimony so we can gauge his mindset. What we have is a judges opinion but what we need to see is Dempsey’s side of the coin. We need to see that in its totality.

Fair enough, but the point is that he stated that Wills was the only fighter he has wanted to fight since 1919....he had a valid contract that was going to deliver the fight, and he passed on it. Not sure what you want anyone to take from that. Especially, as I've stated, when the contract made it clear that if for some reason the fight didn't come off due to non-payment (as you said was the reason it wasn't to come off), that Dempsey would be entitled to a large sum of money.

Dempsey, as hwt champion of the world, actively seeking to make the fight occur is proof in of itself that he wanted to fight Wills. It was a historically unheard of activity.

Unheard of activity? The dude was saying flat out that he wasn't going to give Wills a shot. Apparently he became very upset that Wills was....trying desperately to get a shot. lol.

The Jeanette exhibition is very well known. Dempsey is appearing to fight an exhibition and Jeanette shows up. No top hwt is going to fight another top hwt as an exhibition. It would be akin to Ali showing up to have an exhibition against Lyle Alzado and instead of Lyle Alzado, a top ten hwt contender is in the other corner. The exhibition would never come off as it did not come off with Dempsey. Again this is very well known and understood aside from those pushing the race card.

I'm not buying it. First of all, before the opponent was set, Dempsey said he would fight ANY heavyweight, and left it for the management of the event to choose whom he would fight. When the guy he was supposed to fight no-showed and Jeannette stepped up as a replacement, whose opponent also no showed, not only did Dempsey say he would fight ANY white man instead, he said that he would fight TWO WHITE MEN instead. That doesn't sound like a man who simply didn't want to fight a top contender. He didn't want to fight a black man. It's plain to see. I have articles with he himself being named as the author of the article saying as much, as well as newspaper accounts of it.

[travestyny]

Again the color line and Dempsey’s history with the color line is very well known and understood. You cherry picking dates and not explaining the reasons behind Dempsey’s statements tell me you are more interested in pushing the race card than understanding or perhaps revealing the true history.

What is there to understand? He drew the color line, renounced it, and then drew it again. You seem to be making up lots of excuses. Why would he draw the color line in 1919 and then in 1921 when in his own words he said that Wills was the only man he wanted to fight since 1919? Makes no sense.

Then we see that when he had a promoter willing to get it on and a contract that was deemed valid, he bailed out.

If you want my opinion, he wasn't afraid of Wills or Jeannette. BUT...he was afraid of the possibility of losing to a black fighter. He didn't want that weighing on his legacy.

[travestyny]

Wonderful synopsis of the history of the potential Dempsey Wills fight. Note that there are many nuances to any history/historic event. It is very easy for someone to cherry pick specific points in time to deceive. The full history reveals the problems of making the fight and ultimately why it was never made.

http://fightfilmcollector.blogspot.c...ls-vs.html?m=1

So you want to say this is a wonderful synopsis...yet it glances over the money left for Dempsey to get the fight on, with no account of Dempsey bailing on that money.

Come on. It gives one line saying that money was waiting for him...and that's it. No further explanation.

Once again, the contract was valid and binding. The money was there, along with an assurance that either the fight would come off or Dempsey would receive a large sum of money if it didn't....and Dempsey backed out, for a fight against the "only man that he wanted to fight since 1919."

Again, seems pretty clear to me that he backed out because the possibility of losing to a black fighter frightened him. He didn't want his legacy to have to endure what Jim Jefferies' had to endure.

[HOUDINI563]

Again you need better understanding of the reasons why Dempsey drew and then renounced the color line. There is known and well understood reasons which you are obviously unaware of. None of the reasons entails that Dempsey was easiest or he was trying to avoid fighting a black fighter.

We need Dempsey’s testimony regarding the trial to show his mindset. There is no doubt he as worlds hwt champion worked to make the fight happen which was unheard of historically. We would need to read Dempsey’s testimony to determine why in the end he fought Tunney instead.

The article I posted is a great and historically accurate piece written by a true expert.

[travestyny]

Again you need better understanding of the reasons why Dempsey drew and then renounced the color line. There is known and well understood reasons which you are obviously unaware of. None of the reasons entails that Dempsey was easiest or he was trying to avoid fighting a black fighter.

We need Dempsey’s testimony regarding the trial to show his mindset. There is no doubt he as worlds hwt champion worked to make the fight happen which was unheard of historically. We would need to read Dempsey’s testimony to determine why in the end he fought Tunney instead.

The article I posted is a great and historically accurate piece written by a true expert.

Dude, he never had to officially draw the color line. No one asked him to come out and make a statement about drawing the color line. Stop giving excuses. He obviously decided it for himself.


Ok, let's make this simple. Did Dempsey refuse to fight Jeannette because he is black or not? Simple as that. In his own words in an article he was credited for writing, he stated that he would fight ANY white man but not a "black boy."

Here it is reported in the New York Times that he refused to fight a colored man, Jeannette was cheered by the crowd, and Dempsey was booed.

The crowd wanted it. Jeannette wanted it. Dempsey refused. And this was for a war charity.


Again, your article posted says nothing about Dempsey refusing the money. And you refuse to address that your reasoning for the fight not coming off was because Dempsey being afraid that the money wouldn't come through, yet I've already stated, as did your article, that the money was there waiting for him.

If you'd like to address that with some further details, that are clearly missing from your article, then we should and maybe we can get to the bottom of what happened. If not, we can just agree to disagree instead of repeating ourselves.

With all due respect.

[HOUDINI563]

Wrong. You know little of boxing history. It was common for a new American hwt champion to declare he would draw the color line. It was EXPECTED. Learn boxing history friend.

[HOUDINI563]

You need to know more of boxing history. It was expected of all American white hwt champions to declare the color line. It was expected by the boxing public. You know nothing surrounding Dempsey’s declarations and retractions of the color line. STUDY UP. It’s well known boxing history.

You need to get hold of Dempsey’s testimony so we know his side of the story. All you have is a judges opinion which does not provide Dempsey’s side of the argument.

Wills himself stated in his later years that the reason the fight did not come off HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMPSEY. Who are you to contradict the man himself and you do so not knowing or understanding the history. STUDY UP!

[travestyny]

Wrong. You know little of boxing history. It was common for a new American hwt champion to declare he would draw the color line. It was EXPECTED. Learn boxing history friend.

Is it also EXPECTED for them to renounce it, and then draw it again?


You need to stop pretending that you know any more than anyone else on this forum. You obviously know little about what went down with Harry Wills, or Joe Jeannette. In fact, before I brought up the Joe Jeannette incident, I never saw any of you Dempsey fans mention it. I wonder why.

[travestyny]

You need to know more of boxing history. It was expected of all American white hwt champions to declare the color line. It was expected by the boxing public. You know nothing surrounding Dempsey’s declarations and retractions of the color line. STUDY UP. It’s well known boxing history.

Oh really? Was he expected to draw the color line before he was champion? Maybe you should tell that to the crowd that booed him relentlessly in New York when he tucked tail vs. Joe Jeannette, hmmm?

You need to get hold of Dempsey’s testimony so we know his side of the story. All you have is a judges opinion which does not provide Dempsey’s side of the argument.

And what exactly do you need to know other than the contract was valid, the money was waiting, and he didn't take the fight. What do you need to know? Oh, that's right. That he claimed THERE WAS NO VALID CONTRACT.

That's what he said. And that was found to be FALSE.

Wills himself stated in his later years that the reason the fight did not come off HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMPSEY. Who are you to contradict the man himself and you do so not knowing or understanding the history. STUDY UP!

Wills also said that Dempsey ducked him at some point during this history. Dempsey was also accused of bluffing when he made a stupid ass winner take all bet.....claiming he deposited money with a third party, and the third party went on to say there was never any money given to him by Dempsey.

Now you tell me. Which one of us is presenting facts, and which of us is just pulling shlt from his ass. STUDY UP.


Here's a nice little quotation from Harry Wills. Maybe if you would have..STUDIED UP...You would have found it yourself.

"I don't expect ever to meet Dempsey in the ring," said a resigned Wills. "He has been dodging me for many years and now I am convinced he has been kidding all along."

And now I'm still waiting for you to answer. Did Dempsey duck Jeannette because he was "colored," or am I making that up? What do ya say? Did you "study up" about this yet?