Top 50 Non U.S. ATG LIST

[Greatest1942]

The statements of yours I disagreed with is this Darcy was the 2nd best non-US middleweight and a top 10 non-US pound for pounder. I'm sure he easily makes a top 50 non-US list, I just can't see him as a top 10 fighter.

I am by no means saying he's average. The footage I've seen of him shows he was clearly an awesome fighter. I'm just saying he is, at best the 5th best middleweight from outside of America. That's no insult, there have been a lot of great middleweights.

I rate both Monzon and Fitzsimmons as being in the top 5 Middleweights of all time. Including US fighters. And **** Tiger and Nino Bienvenuti fought superior competition than Darcy. Head to head I'm sure you can make a case for Darcy beating Tiger and Nino, but in terms of resume Darcy comes short compared to those guys. I mean, it's not even close, Tiger and Bienvenuti beat fellow hall of famers. I just don't see how I can rate a guy who beat the likes of Emile Griffith and Luis Manuel Rodriguez below a guy who beat the likes of Eddie McGoorty and Buck Crouse.

I think Fitz and Monzoon are easily the two best non US middles...Come on Monzoon is top 3 middle any day....

Yea resume wise Tiger and Nino are better too...and since h2h is a bad way of rating fighters I will give them the edge over Darcy too.

Darcy might have been potentially greater, but these fighters achieved more.

[SCtrojansbaby]

According to him, all modern beats all old, period, full stop, end of argument (he say's)

Show me the post where I said that or stop making it up

[McGoorty]

I think Fitz and Monzoon are easily the two best non US middles...Come on Monzoon is top 3 middle any day....

Yea resume wise Tiger and Nino are better too...and since h2h is a bad way of rating fighters I will give them the edge over Darcy too.

Darcy might have been potentially greater, but these fighters achieved more.

What's wrong with Darcy's resume ??..... The only fault people seem to give him is that he didn't live very long. There's nothing wrong with his level of opposition. There's nothing wrong with never been knocked out or down. There's nothing wrong with losing 2 20 round fights and two debatable DQ's in 50 fights, there's nothing wrong with having knocked out well over half of your opponents. There's nothing wrong with a guy who's wins on points were all virtual shut outs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You cant fault his all-around ability, you can't fault his speed, or his defence, or ANYTHING. Not one critic here has ever given me a reason as to why he's not one of the greatest MW's or P4P fighters......... He of course ducked every MW, LHW and HW from 1917 to 2011......... he ducked Greb, Loughran, Dempsey, Tunney, Walker, Louis, Marciano, Robinson, Dave Sands, .................... really guys,.... I need more than just bald statements like "he just wasn't as good as all those experts who ACTUALLY SAW HIM FIGHT. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AND I am not putting ANY FIGHTER down..... Comparing any fighter to Darcy is hardly an insult,............... It's the fighters that I DON'T compare Darcy to, are the fighters that I DON'T rate as high as the Monzons and Haglers,.... or indeed even in the ballpark........ Darcy has a GREAT resume..... prove to me how a 20 year old (or even a 24 tear old) with his record is not great........ Just name any MW in history that would have anything near Darcy's record if they suddenly dropped dead before age 24 even,...... Hagler or Monzon or Harry Greb die before 24.... you wouldn't even have heard of them....... BUT YOU KNOW QUITE a BIT ABOUT DARCY, do you not ??

[McGoorty]

That's a bit better

The statements of yours I disagreed with is this Darcy was the 2nd best non-US middleweight and a top 10 non-US pound for pounder. I'm sure he easily makes a top 50 non-US list, I just can't see him as a top 10 fighter. But I did not say He was for sure, I said that he may have been that good. Don't think that I think I'm certain 100 %....... anyone who say's that so and so is without doubt THE greatest fighter and it's the end of story, because they say so, can't be taken seriously. This is not the 100 metre sprint where we see that Usain Bolt is the all-time great because the stop watch is the the judge and the jury of who is fastest...... this is boxing.... and we are talking about a half century. I think Darcy is greater than say Benvenuti.... for a start THE FIRST STATS I LOOK FOR IS their KO losses and if they had been knocked down on different occasions............... Darcy's chin is twice as good as Nino's...... So when I think of them head to head, I see one guy who can stop the other guy and at the same time I see that the guy who can be KO'd also can't stop this guy,.... So it's try to survive the distance and win on points..... ------------------------------------- Could Nino outbox Darcy...... I doubt it but it's a possibility...... I see that fight as ending the same way as when Nino met Monzon...... "TIMMMMMBERRRR".

I am by no means saying he's average. The footage I've seen of him shows he was clearly an awesome fighter. I'm just saying he is, at best the 5th best middleweight from outside of America. That's no insult, there have been a lot of great middleweights. Just as it is no insult to compare Darcy to Monzon, Hagler or Tiger........... It is honouring them.

I rate both Monzon and Fitzsimmons as being in the top 5 Middleweights of all time. Including US fighters. And **** Tiger and Nino Bienvenuti fought superior competition than Darcy. Head to head I'm sure you can make a case for Darcy beating Tiger and Nino, but in terms of resume Darcy comes short compared to those guys. I mean, it's not even close, Tiger and Bienvenuti beat fellow hall of famers. I just don't see how I can rate a guy who beat the likes of Emile Griffith and Luis Manuel Rodriguez below a guy who beat the likes of Eddie McGoorty and Buck Crouse. Benvenuti was naturally bigger than Griffith (great fighter for sure) and he was much taller. I say that McGoorty, Clabby, Smith were great as Rodriguez....... It was a stronger MW era........ old timers from Darcy's era were not as impressed with the 60's fighters as most posters here do,.... there is soooooooo much written in that vein.... along the lines that boxing had deteriorated somewhere in the 50's..... those old timers rated many old time MW's and WW's better than the likes of Griffith and Benvenuti...... many skills had been lost by that time. You are assuming that the 60's fighters were greater than in the 1910's...... I understand that it is not Darcy that you underrate,... but his era.

I said enough for the moment. I welcome your comments.

[McGoorty]

Show me the post where I said that or stop making shyt up

I have never heard you praise ONE SINGLE OLD-TIMER....... is that because you can't name ten of them off the top of your head...... LOL... making **** up........ lol..... When are you going to stop this petulance..... I grow tired of your little tantrums.

[McGoorty]

I think Fitz and Monzoon are easily the two best non US middles...Come on Monzoon is top 3 middle any day....

Yea resume wise Tiger and Nino are better too...and since h2h is a bad way of rating fighters I will give them the edge over Darcy too.

Darcy might have been potentially greater, but these fighters achieved more.

You are seriously out there saying Nino's resume is better,....... Benvenuti's record is very poor in comparison to Darcy's....... I am beginning to hate this resume crap...... Wins over great fighters (Darcy) is better than losing to any great you fought (Benvenuti)..... and he did lose to nobodies,,,,,, Bob Whitelaw is better than at least two guys that beat Nino. and Darcy was just a 17 year old. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Les Darcy - 46-4------------ Nino Benvenuti - knocked out THREE TIMES !!!!. 82 - 7 - 1........ just the 3 KO losses prove something. Nino gets KO'd by some dude named Tom Bethea........... and he's won just a handfull of fights against top fighters and Griffith was a war weary veteran when Benvenuti sc****d a decision out...... but he also loses to Griffith who is also out of his best weight class. --------------------------- I will wait to see how you argue this one. For a start, from what I know about Gibbons.... I say Mike was also a better fighter than Benvenuti, and McGoorty and Clabby too...... George Chip has a chance also in a head to head fight with Benvenuti......... Benvenuti would have struggled to be a top 10 MW in that era.

[Greatest1942]

You are seriously out there saying Nino's resume is better,....... Benvenuti's record is very poor in comparison to Darcy's....... I am beginning to hate this resume crap...... Wins over great fighters (Darcy) is better than losing to any great you fought (Benvenuti)..... and he did lose to nobodies,,,,,, Bob Whitelaw is better than at least two guys that beat Nino. and Darcy was just a 17 year old. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Les Darcy - 46-4------------ Nino Benvenuti - knocked out THREE TIMES !!!!. 82 - 7 - 1........ just the 3 KO losses prove something. Nino gets KO'd by some dude named Tom Bethea........... and he's won just a handfull of fights against top fighters and Griffith was a war weary veteran when Benvenuti sc****d a decision out...... but he also loses to Griffith who is also out of his best weight class. --------------------------- I will wait to see how you argue this one. For a start, from what I know about Gibbons.... I say Mike was also a better fighter than Benvenuti, and McGoorty and Clabby too...... George Chip has a chance also in a head to head fight with Benvenuti......... Benvenuti would have struggled to be a top 10 MW in that era.

Agreed Griffith was war weary...but does Darcy or most middle weights have a name like that in their resume....I am sure Darcy was a better fighter than Nino but still I think Nino had the better resume. Besides Griffith was coming off two wins of Archer a good fighter, had beaten **** Tiger a top middle weight...He might have out of his prime but still was good, a notch above most fighters. It was a good win...

Of the 7 loses- 4 came in between 1970-71 the last two years of his career....So if you look at his career again it is actually pretty good. Nino's winning streak from 1961 to 1966 is awesome too...he never lost in that period.He was 65-0 or something at that stage...Not bad yeah?


Bethea too caught Nino towards the end of his career...It was an year prior to his last year....If Darcy had lived on he would have had loses towards the end of his career too...All had they did not have today's comfort of picking and choosing opponents.


Gibbons was better than Nino , as was McGoorty or Darcy was better h2h too...but resume wise Nino is as good as anyone.

[Kid McCoy]

You are seriously out there saying Nino's resume is better,....... Benvenuti's record is very poor in comparison to Darcy's....... I am beginning to hate this resume crap...... Wins over great fighters (Darcy) is better than losing to any great you fought (Benvenuti)..... and he did lose to nobodies,,,,,, Bob Whitelaw is better than at least two guys that beat Nino. and Darcy was just a 17 year old. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Les Darcy - 46-4------------ Nino Benvenuti - knocked out THREE TIMES !!!!. 82 - 7 - 1........ just the 3 KO losses prove something. Nino gets KO'd by some dude named Tom Bethea........... and he's won just a handfull of fights against top fighters and Griffith was a war weary veteran when Benvenuti sc****d a decision out...... but he also loses to Griffith who is also out of his best weight class. --------------------------- I will wait to see how you argue this one. For a start, from what I know about Gibbons.... I say Mike was also a better fighter than Benvenuti, and McGoorty and Clabby too...... George Chip has a chance also in a head to head fight with Benvenuti......... Benvenuti would have struggled to be a top 10 MW in that era.

Maybe if Darcy had lived to age 33 he'd have had a few KOs and losses against lesser fighters. Two of those KOs were to Carlos Monzon (no disgrace there). While you're picking apart Benvenuti's career you can do exactly the same for Darcy's. He could easily have had a KO/TKO loss to Jeff Smith, McGoorty was near the end of the road by then and there have always been su****ions that some of his fights were not on the level.

The main issue I see with Darcy is we're talking about an incomplete career with unanswered questions. Mike Gibbons was probably the best fighter in the world at the time and would have been a different proposition to anyone Darcy beat. He was very good but at 21 it's hard to know just how good. Imagine if Mike Tyson had died before the Buster Douglas fight and how different his legacy would look now. I think he was better than Benvenuti but his career was hardly leagues better.

[Greatest1942]

Maybe if Darcy had lived to age 33 he'd have had a few KOs and losses against lesser fighters. Two of those KOs were to Carlos Monzon (no disgrace there). While you're picking apart Benvenuti's career you can do exactly the same for Darcy's. He could easily have had a KO/TKO loss to Jeff Smith, McGoorty was near the end of the road by then and there have always been su****ions that some of his fights were not on the level.

The main issue I see with Darcy is we're talking about an incomplete career with unanswered questions. Mike Gibbons was probably the best fighter in the world at the time and would have been a different proposition to anyone Darcy beat. He was very good but at 21 it's hard to know just how good. Imagine if Mike Tyson had died before the Buster Douglas fight and how different his legacy would look now. I think he was better than Benvenuti but his career was hardly leagues better.

Kid , I saw you post for a few days...where have you been...Good to see you though.

I hope you post regularly here from now on.

[SCtrojansbaby]

I have never heard you praise ONE SINGLE OLD-TIMER....... is that because you can't name ten of them off the top of your head...... LOL... making **** up........ lol..... When are you going to stop this petulance..... I grow tired of your little tantrums.

I don't rate "old timers" or put them in fantasy fights so WTF are you talking about?