WLAD Vs JESS WILLARD, Who Wins, 15 Round Super HW, Fight

[Steak]

its about transferring weight. when i'm talking about getting leverage and power i'm talking about his weight, not just his hands


that's not where his power is made
it;s made from transferring his weight
not muscles in his legs specifically, or any real muscle specifically.
and certainly not the quadriceps. those are a pushing muscle (extension is the technical term i believe) they extend the leg at the knee they really aren't very involved with punching, and that's why you don't see big ones on any of your favorite boxer.
if there's a leg muscle involved with throwing a right hand more than others its your ass and your hips



the means of generating power that you're talking about is not how you're taught to punch, and not what makes sense once you know how to punch, which honestly leads me to believe that you don't have a ton of experience throwing punches, which is absolutely fine and i'm not trying to run you down for it

and for the bold part

how on earth would gravity play a small role in punching if you want to "put your weight in it?"

what does gravity want your weight doing?

punching is about weight transferral
i don't know how many times i've got to say that
anybody who boxes (especially those who are punchers or have been involved with punchers) will tell you that

it's a gravity based phenomenon, power punching
it;s just just about using big muscles and pushing and pulling (which is all muscles do on their own)
it's about coordinating a fast transferral of weight that can make a target accelerate rapidly

you are one minded and theres no point in continuing this debate with you. You continually ignore video evidence and body mechanics completely.

If youre punching downward, youre only mostly getting your upper bodies weight in it, since the point of impact in the punch will be above your hips. In other words, your lower bodies' weight is not fully behind the punch if you are punching downward.

And you obviously just dont understand what punching through the target is. Surely youve heard the phrase before? by any number of boxing trainers or boxers themselves? It means that you are able to stabilize yourself on the ground AFTER the moment of impact, and continue to carry the punch through the target.

You can NOT do that if youre not pushing off the ground, and the opposite force that travels through your body after the punch lands(equal to the initial power of the punch) will actually push your fist back if there isnt a large resistance forcing it to stay there. Hence why so many power punchers have poweful backs. and if youre not pushing off the ground at the moment of impact, that backlash will lose you power.

If you want to make believe youre right, knock yourself out. but youre not. If you dont punch behind your shoulder, you lose power. plain and simple.

incidently, dont try to be technical with the extension thing when I clearly already brought it up in my post.

that muscle can only extend, it has no flexion unlike the hamstrings.

This either tells me
1. Youre not actually reading my posts or thinking about them because youre already self convinced in your incorrect belief or
2. You are trying to appear educated on body mechanics and the workings of human muscles and reused what I already said in an attempt to appear on even terms with me.
Neither situations induce me to continue having this debate with you, since it seems that you will just go in circles over and over and repeating the same thing without actually addressing any of my points, and trying to pretend that throwing a baseball is in any way similiar to throwing a punch.

and one more thing. None of the videos I posted(though I doubt you bothered to watch them to see my point) were of 'my favorite boxers'. Those were all hard punchers that usually had height advantages in fights, and ALL of them preferred to line their punches up behind their shoulders even on shorter opponents, about or below the level of their opponent's head. I thought you would catch on to that by now.
If you want to question punching technique on p4p ATG punchers just to reassure your self belief, have fun. None of them punched downward to generate power. They lined their shoulders up to their opponents head level. But you will probably ignore this, again, and instead try to question my boxing knowledge. excellent.

[Greatest1942]

nobody who has ever lived can "toss" anything that weighs 500 lbs, brother.
that would wear your back down to nothing. there would be no boxing involved int he picture if you did that regularly.

500 lbs is a life altering amount of weight... it does not get tossed. that sounds like the exaggeration to me.

back to the matter at hand

williard had less than two inches of reach on him. they were about the same height,
at his best (leading into the fight with jonnson, also in the fight against dempsey,) willard never weighed much more than 240, making he and wladimir nearly identical in size.)



i don't think me saying that a wladimir would be "slightly stronger" than jess willard would be a stretch or an exaggeration at all. id like you to tell me why you think it would be.


i think the stretch is you assuming that a giant man from the past is somehow guaranteed to be stronger than a giant man from the present with ten times the talent and nearly identical size.

why wouldn't they be at least comparable?



want to know why willards strength is so "legendary?" he was fighting in the 1910's
he was bigger than everybody else!!
is it just some coincidence that he was not only larger than all of the men he was facing, but also stronger? of course not.

what's going to happen when he's not bigger than these other guys?

he's not likely to be stronger (unless jess willard is some kind of superfreak athlete, which he clearly was not. the guy was minimally talented outside of his size)

it's outrageous, in my opinion, to believe that jess willard is somehow this superhuman of physical strength regardless of the size of the men he's going up against

why wouldn't a guy his size negate his physical advantages he had over smaller opponents?



it's willards opponents size that made him special (to the very small degree to which willard is special. you get that this guy isn't much more than laughing stock//freakshow in historic boxing terms, correct?)

he was fighting before the depression
men of his size were almost unheard of at the time


his advantages would disappear once he got into the ring with somebody his size
and that includes his strength
i don't see why that's hard to comprehend in the least.

Bro Fact is Willard was seen by witnesses doing it...Trust me I don't know the family backgrounds or honesty of the guys but I have zero proof to say it was false too.

Willard was extremely strong. His only problem was he never liked fighting. He was recommended to boxing after someone saw him tossing bales of cotton easily...he never learnt to box...A single uppercut of him killed a man...I know many weaker men have killed men too, but few did it like Willard who learnt to box pretty late.

He broke horses and ran a frontier freight-wagon service, J. D. Brock picked him simply for his size and strength...He was a man who was brought up in a way that would enhance his strength from the beginning.

Sorry I can't see Wlad being stronger than Willard...And its not because Wlad is from 2000 and Willard from 1919...I am not senile.


As for as this fighting little guys , let me tell you one thing Harry Willis , Jack Dempsey, Firpo were not small men...Jack Johnson would have weighed over 230 (he weighed 225 pounds against Willard )with todays modern nutrition not far from most heavies I may add...I tell you one thing wake up...

I can name a score of fighters who you might not have heard of who Wlad would definitely beat in strength...Not Willard...I am not arguing Fred Fulton would out muscle Wlad..and yea Fulton was no small man. Heard of Carl Morris ? He weighed 234 pounds against Willard...Wasn't a small man by any stretch..the very statement " he beat small men", almost put me off and I thought off not posting a reply...Listen sir, go to a doc and say that human evolution has happened over 100 years...this is only thought by boxers like us...Most professionals will laugh at you.

There were big men before 1990 you know...But generally they were hammered.

Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that a man from 1919 can indeed be stronger than a man from 2000 of comparable height and structure...My brother a surgeon has assured me repeatedly that nothing increases functional strength like hard manual labour.


And ,What proof you have that Willard did not lift 500 pounds...Zero, just "life altering weigh" and stuff like that....Why should I believe your doubts and not other guys assertion who lived at that time? Sorry I will take their words over some Internet posters doubts in 2011.

In CBZ i read a article which stated Curtis Shpehard benched around 200 pounds when he was around 60...What makes you think a young much bigger naturally strong guy would not do it...

Just one last thing...Willard did weigh over 240...he weighed 259 pounds once...get your facts straight, and that was without the help of modern nutrition,without lifting weights etc...

[them_apples]

A punch is a very different thing than throwing a ball. You will hear EVERYWHERE that its better to punch from behind your shoulder and not down, and to your entire body into the punch.

Gravity is a very small thing when it comes to a punch, because you want your entire body weight in it. Havent you ever heard of 'following through' with a punch to cause more damage? That means pushing through it with your legs and back braced. And I hate to break it to you, but its literally impossible to force your quadreceps to generate power angled down, since that muscle can only extend, it has no flexion unlike the hamstrings.

look at any of the hardest straight right hand punchers.

Hearns' shoulder is below Duran's head level.

Arguello follows the punch through his shoulder level, not downward

Remember how Trinidad used to dip down to meet his opponent often, before reaching up with a left hook? Notice how the right behind follows through on his shoulder level when he throws a powerful right hand? Despite his usually height advantage, his shoulder would almost always be about the head level of his shorter opponent.

you ignored his entire post, go box. science isn't going to work here.

[Steak]

you ignored his entire post, go box. science isn't going to work here.

actually, I addressed many of his points. And look at that, you ignored the entirety of my post, and instead just said "Youre wrong, Im smarter" like a child, and didnt even attempt to make an argument because you cant.

I know boxing, and I know kinesiology. Youre a moron if you believe the two are unrelated.

[them_apples]

you are one minded and theres no point in continuing this debate with you. You continually ignore video evidence and body mechanics completely.

If youre punching downward, youre only mostly getting your upper bodies weight in it, since the point of impact in the punch will be above your hips. In other words, your lower bodies' weight is not fully behind the punch if you are punching downward.

And you obviously just dont understand what punching through the target is. Surely youve heard the phrase before? by any number of boxing trainers or boxers themselves? It means that you are able to stabilize yourself on the ground AFTER the moment of impact, and continue to carry the punch through the target.

You can NOT do that if youre not pushing off the ground, and the opposite force that travels through your body after the punch lands(equal to the initial power of the punch) will actually push your fist back if there isnt a large resistance forcing it to stay there. Hence why so many power punchers have poweful backs. and if youre not pushing off the ground at the moment of impact, that backlash will lose you power.

If you want to make believe youre right, knock yourself out. but youre not. If you dont punch behind your shoulder, you lose power. plain and simple.

incidently, dont try to be technical with the extension thing when I clearly already brought it up in my post.

This either tells me
1. Youre not actually reading my posts or thinking about them because youre already self convinced in your incorrect belief or
2. You are trying to appear educated on body mechanics and the workings of human muscles and reused what I already said in an attempt to appear on even terms with me.
Neither situations induce me to continue having this debate with you, since it seems that you will just go in circles over and over and repeating the same thing without actually addressing any of my points, and trying to pretend that throwing a baseball is in any way similiar to throwing a punch.

and one more thing. None of the videos I posted(though I doubt you bothered to watch them to see my point) were of 'my favorite boxers'. Those were all hard punchers that usually had height advantages in fights, and ALL of them preferred to line their punches up behind their shoulders even on shorter opponents, about or below the level of their opponent's head. I thought you would catch on to that by now.
If you want to question punching technique on p4p ATG punchers just to reassure your self belief, have fun. None of them punched downward to generate power. They lined their shoulders up to their opponents head level. But you will probably ignore this, again, and instead try to question my boxing knowledge. excellent.

why are you confusing yourself?

Yes everyone who boxes knows these things I bolded, but you are using them in the wrong context. Your shoulder must be placed behind the straight right yes, but thats really only for people (noobs) with a chicken wing guard. When they throw punches the elbow bends easier and saps the power of your body weight. for lack of a better word. I keep my elbow in and behind my shoulder when I'm punching down at a shorter opponent, there is no interference here. so yeah, you are right, but its irrelevant.

Second, punching through the target is just follow through. Ever heard about aiming with your elbow? Or aiming at the back of an opponents head? thats what follow through is, aiming right through the target as if nothing is there - so you don't subconsciously pull your punches and take some of the beef off of them.

You brought up two point that you are correct about, but they are completely irrelevant to punching up or down as I said before.

[Jim Jeffries]

hit it on the head, bro ^^


just imagine your speedbag is your opponents chin

and set it up at chin height

and then six inches above your head
and another six inches above that

hit each 2000 times (shouldn't take long if you can hit a speedbag, but the tall one will be a serious workout.)

and come back to me with your honest opinion

So let me get this straight, you're going to prove punching power is greater punching down, with a speed bag, at three heights, all of which are above shoulder height?. Perfect.

you ignored his entire post

You just ignored his entire post, which is what usually happens when someone has a confirmation bias.

go box. science isn't going to work here.

Of course not, the laws of physics are magically suspended every time you enter a boxing ring.

[Steak]

why are you confusing yourself?

Yes everyone who boxes knows these things I bolded, but you are using them in the wrong context. Your shoulder must be placed behind the straight right yes, but thats really only for people (noobs) with a chicken wing guard. When they throw punches the elbow bends easier and saps the power of your body weight. for lack of a better word. I keep my elbow in and behind my shoulder when I'm punching down at a shorter opponent, there is no interference here. so yeah, you are right, but its irrelevant.

Second, punching through the target is just follow through. Ever heard about aiming with your elbow? Or aiming at the back of an opponents head? thats what follow through is, aiming right through the target as if nothing is there - so you don't subconsciously pull your punches and take some of the beef off of them.

You brought up two point that you are correct about, but they are completely irrelevant to punching up or down as I said before.

I guess Hearns, Trinidad, Arguello, Tyson, etc are all noobs. Thank goodness I have you boxing ATGs here to tell me otherwise.

Im getting the impression you guys dont think that the back or legs significantly contribute to punching power. oh boy.

[them_apples]

I guess Hearns, Trinidad, Arguello, Tyson, etc are all noobs. Thank goodness I have you boxing ATGs here to tell me otherwise.

Im getting the impression you guys dont think that the back or legs significantly contribute to punching power. oh boy.

theres nothing wrong with your body mechanics posts. I'm not disagreeing with them. But they won't effect your punching if the opponent is below you. you will get even more leverage.

thats why I'm telling you, one of the hardest shots, if not the hardest - is a left hook to the body. you don't under stand the leverage you can get from that shot.

[Jim Jeffries]

not muscles in his legs specifically, or any real muscle specifically.
and certainly not the quadriceps. those are a pushing muscle (extension is the technical term i believe) they extend the leg at the knee they really aren't very involved with punching, and that's why you don't see big ones on any of your favorite boxer.

Yeah you never see big punchers with big quads. Never.


thigh - 27 inches


thigh - 30 inches


thigh - 25.5 inches

[Steak]

theres nothing wrong with your body mechanics posts. I'm not disagreeing with them. But they won't effect your punching if the opponent is below you. you will get even more leverage.

thats why I'm telling you, one of the hardest shots, if not the hardest - is a left hook to the body. you don't under stand the leverage you can get from that shot.

and the left hook to the body is not aimed downward. It is hooked from the side, and travels directly in the path of the turning hip.

7:15. the punch definitely does not travel downward in any way, and you can see that his lead leg is glued to the ground and pulls forward and upward to deliver the shot.

the fist starts at the same height that it ends up. Which is the optimal for power.