Originally posted by Fooly Cooly
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A Case for Sonny Liston by Monte Cox.
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Originally posted by IronDanHamza View PostIs there ever a time you're not in the mood to watch a Sonny Liston fight?Last edited by The Surgeon; 09-05-2011, 04:56 PM.
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Originally posted by Fooly Cooly View PostYou kinda had me going until you went into hyperbolic mode about Cleveland Williams being the second coming of Godzilla.
Besides, I already read the book on Liston. I know all about him. He was a 6 foot tall illiterate ex-con with a constant sourpuss who shrivelled up lke a dick in cold water the minute Ali called his "tough guy" bluff.
Aside from that, he was slow footed and and relatively slow handed.
Good jab, decent side to side head movement and a good straight right. But people go overboard with their romanticizing of the "good ole' days".
I threw the Klitschko barb in for good measure because I know this section is polluted with jingoistic misanthropes and sore losers jealous of Europe.
Not you, but others.
For the record Williams was a very good fighter regardless.
I don't think if he was "illiterate" or an "ex-con" has anything to do with his boxing ability.
He might have been a little slow on the foot speed but, he tagged Ali with a lot of fast jabs in the first fight despite being horribly past prime and had average at the very worst ahdn speed for a Heavyweight.
"Good jab" is a candidate for understatement of the year. I'm also not romanticizing with the "good ole# days" either. If you looked at some of my other posts you would know that.
Why would I be jealous of Europe when I myself am from Britain and wanted Haye to be beaten...
I posted an article about a misunderstood ATG HW which people might find interesting, I didn't want you to hate on him. If you don't feel he is great outline your reasons in a sensible non-hating manner and respect the things he did have going for him.
Good day
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Originally posted by Barnburner View PostAs for the first point this is not my article, my name is sadly not Monte Cox. The fact that you thought someone had went to the effort of writing that and just dismiss it with hatred about the fighter being discussed just proves your ignorance.
For the record Williams was a very good fighter regardless.
I don't think if he was "illiterate" or an "ex-con" has anything to do with his boxing ability.
He might have been a little slow on the foot speed but, he tagged Ali with a lot of fast jabs in the first fight despite being horribly past prime and had average at the very worst ahdn speed for a Heavyweight.
Not to mention his quittage in the second fight but that could use its own thread.
"Good jab" is a candidate for understatement of the year. I'm also not romanticizing with the "good ole# days" either. If you looked at some of my other posts you would know that.
Why would I be jealous of Europe when I myself am from Britain and wanted Haye to be beaten...
I posted an article about a misunderstood ATG HW which people might find interesting, I didn't want you to hate on him. If you don't feel he is great outline your reasons in a sensible non-hating manner and respect the things he did have going for him.
I got no horse in this race.
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Originally posted by Fooly Cooly View PostYou kinda had me going until you went into hyperbolic mode about Cleveland Williams being the second coming of Godzilla.
Originally posted by Fooly Cooly View PostBesides, I already read the book on Liston.
Originally posted by Fooly Cooly View PostAside from that, he was slow footed and and relatively slow handed.
Originally posted by Fooly Cooly View PostGood jab, decent side to side head movement and a good straight right. But people go overboard with their romanticizing of the "good ole' days".
Originally posted by Fooly Cooly View PostI threw the Klitschko barb in for good measure because I know this section is polluted with jingoistic misanthropes and sore losers jealous of Europe.
And BTW, very few Americans outside of a few Marxist 'tards are jealous of Europe. You have zilch to be jealous over.....Not surprising since your society hasn't been relevant in about 60 years.
Poet
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Originally posted by Fooly Cooly View PostMaybe after the fact, but during the pre fight buildup he took Liston's "aura" and flushed it down the toilet.
He rendered Liston impotent with some simple psychology.
Ali admitted before an after the fight that he was afraid of Sonny Liston;
(About the physical confrontation between Clay and Liston before their first fight) In his interview with Playboy, Clay admitted it was true. Liston had frightened him. “ I ain’t gonna lie. That was the first time since I known Sonny Liston that he scared me. I just felt the power and the meaness of the man I was messing with”
The fight doctor Alex Robbins, proclaimed that Clay was “emotionally unbalanced, scared to death and liable to crack up before he entered the ring”
“I won’t lie” Ali admitted to Thomas Hauser in 1991, “I was scared. Sonny Liston was one of the greatest fighters of all time. He hit hard and he was fixing to kill me. But I was there, I didn’t have no choice but to go out and fight”
http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bioliston1.htm
Sonny Liston was the only man to strike genuine fear into Muhammad Ali. For a very good reason.
Sonny Liston wasn't 'scary' for show. He was genuinely a very frightening man.
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Originally posted by IronDanHamza View PostNot true.
Ali admitted before an after the fight that he was afraid of Sonny Liston;
(About the physical confrontation between Clay and Liston before their first fight) In his interview with Playboy, Clay admitted it was true. Liston had frightened him. “ I ain’t gonna lie. That was the first time since I known Sonny Liston that he scared me. I just felt the power and the meaness of the man I was messing with”
The fight doctor Alex Robbins, proclaimed that Clay was “emotionally unbalanced, scared to death and liable to crack up before he entered the ring”
“I won’t lie” Ali admitted to Thomas Hauser in 1991, “I was scared. Sonny Liston was one of the greatest fighters of all time. He hit hard and he was fixing to kill me. But I was there, I didn’t have no choice but to go out and fight”
http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bioliston1.htm
Sonny Liston was the only man to strike genuine fear into Muhammad Ali. For a very good reason.
Sonny Liston wasn't 'scary' for show. He was genuinely a very frightening man.
Ali admitting this stuff 20 years later doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about. What matters is how he diffused Liston's "aura" simply by not giving him any respect prior to the fight.
Its like Holyfield handled Tyson or anyone else who wasn't a total bum handled Tyson.
Without you helping Tyson and Liston out by being scared, they were nothing but bullies with a punch.
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Originally posted by Fooly Cooly View PostAgain, I'm sure Ali had some anxiety before a fight, but he didn't show it and turned the tables on Liston. Liston thought Ali was nuts and didn't know how to approach him.
Ali admitting this stuff 20 years later doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about. What matters is how he diffused Liston's "aura" simply by not giving him any respect prior to the fight.
Its like Holyfield handled Tyson or anyone else who wasn't a total bum handled Tyson.
Without you helping Tyson and Liston out by being scared, they were nothing but bullies with a punch.
Ali himself admitted BEFORE their first fight that was afraid of Sonny. And he did a very good job at covering that up.
There is no 'bluff' to call. Because Sonny Liston wasn't bluffing.
Sonny Liston isn't Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson admitted to being afraid walking to the ring.
The only time 'admit' and 'Sonny Liston' are in the same sentace is pretty much every fighter he ever fought admitting they were scared to death of him.
Muhammad Ali beat him solely because he is better than him. Alot better than him. And that's it. It's absolutely nothing to do with the fact of Ali 'not being scared of him' and 'calling his tough guy bluff' that argument has been ultimately de-bunked.
And being over-matched by argubaly the greatest Heavyweight of all time is nothing to be ashamed of.
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Originally posted by IronDanHamza View PostYou're missing the fact that Ali said some of those things BEFORE their first fight. And admitted he was afraid of Sonny BEFORE their first fight.
Ali himself admitted BEFORE their first fight that was afraid of Sonny. And he did a very good job at covering that up.
There is no 'bluff' to call. Because Sonny Liston wasn't bluffing.
Sonny Liston isn't Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson admitted to being afraid walking to the ring.
The only time 'admit' and 'Sonny Liston' are in the same sentace is pretty much every fighter he ever fought admitting they were scared to death of him.
Muhammad Ali beat him solely because he is better than him. Alot better than him. And that's it. It's absolutely nothing to do with the fact of Ali 'not being scared of him' and 'calling his tough guy bluff' that argument has been ultimately de-bunked.
And being over-matched by argubaly the greatest Heavyweight of all time is nothing to be ashamed of.
Liston was obviously scared of Ali because Ali didn't roll over like the usual punks do when a bully tries to pull a fast one on him.
You are sitting here and pretending Liston isn't a human and he has no fears about going in the ring? lol.
EVERY fighter has fear before entering the ring. You pretending Liston was some evil robot killer is more of the same kind of mythologizing that a lot of these hack writers do with old fighters to try and sound "profound" when in fact its a lotta bull and puckey.
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