i think lennox could beat ali.. lennox= greatest HW ever?

[Greatest1942]

Live, dead, or cryogenically frozen it's irrelevant. Just because the dude is dead he can't be criticized for the positions he took? Well hell, that means we can't criticize Primo Carnera's qualities as a fighter.....'cuz he's dead. Historians from any and every field come in for criticism long after they're dead: Their room-temperature status doesn't grant them immunity. Why on Earth should Kaplan get a pass no one else gets? Personally I think Napoleon was a 24 karot azzhole. Should I refrain from saying it since he's been dead for nearly 200 years? Come on.




So what? Because he's a historian and historians have to have a certain level of academic objectivity. Buying into hype jeopardizes that academic standard. If anything, hype ought to make a good historian suspicious that the emperor has no clothes.




Obsessed with weight are we? You can't seem to make any point without making a gratuitous reference to weight. And again, you're failing to distinguish between "great right hand" and "greatest right hand". There's a big gulf between those two.




A gratuitous assertion that may be equally gratuitously denied.

Poet

I am saying that Hank could have defended against your charges easily. I am sure. He is not here to defend himself. He made those comments but I am sure he will not have Tyson at his top at 2007. We make changes. Did you never make any in you life?

You respect Cox right..."Lennox has one of the most powerful right hands in heavyweight history.It is not an unfair comparison to state that Lewis right hand is the equal of men such as Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Rocky Maricano, and Joe Louis."---Monte Cox.

Cox's Corner rates Lennox Lewis among the 10 greatest heavyweights of history.

I am obsessed with weight? I am saying Lewis has one of the best right hands of all time. Hank says its best. I say some one else is the best. But it is up there any way. You have probs no wonder...doesnt matter. Knocking out 230 pounders with one punch is not a joke. Other wise we would see it more regularly.


All we know is that Lewis knocked out big heavies with one punch, few have done it. And there are a select few Louis and Shavers who match the concussive power of Lewis. (Foreman was more of a clubbing puncher)

Whats so wrong in rating him top? You can never objectively measure all ? We can only go by our opinion. And Hank said that.

Name one fighter except Moorer whom Foreman Kod with one punch and name the same for Baer. Sorry you cant. Lets go by facts.
You have not given an iota of evidence against this except the fact you deny. Snap timing and power go into an Knock out. While Foreman or Baer might have hit harder they did not have the snap or timing of Shavers , Louis or Lewis.

Lets compare Foreman with shavers, since you are hung up on it.

vs. Norton -- Norton got wore out over the course of the two rounds with Foreman, and after getting knocked down for the first time he then took five or six FLUSH shots on the chin before Big George finally got him out of there...After Shavers knocked down Norton for the first time he then only needed one single FLUSH right hand to the chin before the curtains fell on the proceedings.

Similarly Lewis lands one clear on Rahman and thats over. Golata, Tyson lands many clean shots but cant quite clean him up but Lewis blows him out.

All I am saying is Foreman punched hard but he did not have the snap to get the KO's. Similar Baer. He hurt his opponent (killed too). Lewis , Shavers and Louis had the snap and timing with power to Knock guys out cold. I consider these and hence say these have the best right hand...You are free to disagree with Baer and Foreman


I am still waiting for the comments from Tyson trainers laughing on Hank's comments. Who did it Rooney , Cus ...

[StarshipTrooper]

I am saying that Hank could have defended against your charges easily. I am sure. He is not here to defend himself. He made those comments but I am sure he will not have Tyson at his top at 2007. We make changes. Did you never make any in you life?

Flavor of the month. Latest is the greatest. Put up a windsock and watch Hank blow with it.

You respect Cox right..."Lennox has one of the most powerful right hands in heavyweight history.It is not an unfair comparison to state that Lewis right hand is the equal of men such as Mike Tyson, George Foreman, Rocky Maricano, and Joe Louis."---Monte Cox.

Cox's Corner rates Lennox Lewis among the 10 greatest heavyweights of history.

Once again conveniently skipping over the point that there's a big difference between "one of the greatest" and "the greatest". Learn the difference.

I am obsessed with weight? I am saying Lewis has one of the best right hands of all time. Hank says its best. I say some one else is the best. But it is up there any way. You have probs no wonder...doesnt matter. Knocking out 230 pounders with one punch is not a joke. Other wise we would see it more regularly.

230 pounders are no more immune to KOs then anyone else. Last time I checked they don't carry that weight in their chins. The issue is how good their chin is not how much they weigh.

All we know is that Lewis knocked out big heavies with one punch, few have done it. And there are a select few Louis and Shavers who match the concussive power of Lewis. (Foreman was more of a clubbing puncher)

Whats so wrong in rating him top? You can never objectively measure all ? We can only go by our opinion. And Hank said that.

Not all opinions have credibility. Bert Sugar has loads of opinions but I'm under no obligation to respect them as Sugar has no credibility.....and to my eyes neither does someone who blows with whatever way the hype winds are blowing like Kaplan did.

Name one fighter except Moorer whom Foreman Kod with one punch and name the same for Baer. Sorry you cant. Lets go by facts.
You have not given an iota of evidence against this except the fact you deny. Snap timing and power go into an Knock out. While Foreman or Baer might have hit harder they did not have the snap or timing of Shavers , Louis or Lewis.

Ali KOed Liston with one punch. Ali has awesome power now? The point being there's more involved with it then simply "so-and-so had a great right hand".....or a great left-hook, or uppercut or anything else.

Lets compare Foreman with shavers, since you are hung up on it.

vs. Norton -- Norton got wore out over the course of the two rounds with Foreman, and after getting knocked down for the first time he then took five or six FLUSH shots on the chin before Big George finally got him out of there...After Shavers knocked down Norton for the first time he then only needed one single FLUSH right hand to the chin before the curtains fell on the proceedings.

And this is an issue how? I'm already on record as rating Shavers the hardest punching Heavy of all time. Quick Tillis got stopped in the first round by Tim Witherspoon. Tillis took Tyson to a decision. Does that mean Tyson can't punch now?

Similarly Lewis lands one clear on Rahman and thats over. Golata, Tyson lands many clean shots but cant quite clean him up but Lewis blows him out.

Rahman never saw the punch coming. Lesser punchers then Lennox have gotten KOs over chinny opponents like Rahman by hitting them with something they didn't see coming. Nobody is claiming they had "the greatest right hand in history" because of it.

I am still waiting for the comments from Tyson trainers laughing on Hank's comments. Who did it Rooney , Cus ...

It was one of his Rooney era trainers since you're so obsessed with this point. To paraphrase, his point was "rather than being a great defensive fighter, Tyson's defense was his offense". Want the name? You'll have to dig around in the issues of Ring Magazine from the early '90s. Have fun.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

Flavor of the month. Latest is the greatest. Put up a windsock and watch Hank blow with it.




Once again conveniently skipping over the point that there's a big difference between "one of the greatest" and "the greatest". Learn the difference.




230 pounders are no more immune to KOs then anyone else. Last time I checked they don't carry that weight in their chins. The issue is how good their chin is not how much they weigh.




Not all opinions have credibility. Bert Sugar has loads of opinions but I'm under no obligation to respect them as Sugar has no credibility.....and to my eyes neither does someone who blows with whatever way the hype winds are blowing like Kaplan did.




Ali KOed Liston with one punch. Ali has awesome power now? The point being there's more involved with it then simply "so-and-so had a great right hand".....or a great left-hook, or uppercut or anything else.




And this is an issue how? I'm already on record as rating Shavers the hardest punching Heavy of all time. Quick Tillis got stopped in the first round by Tim Witherspoon. Tillis took Tyson to a decision. Does that mean Tyson can't punch now?




Rahman never saw the punch coming. Lesser punchers then Lennox have gotten KOs over chinny opponents like Rahman by hitting them with something they didn't see coming. Nobody is claiming they had "the greatest right hand in history" because of it.




It was one of his Rooney era trainers since you're so obsessed with this point. To paraphrase, his point was "rather than being a great defensive fighter, Tyson's defense was his offense". Want the name? You'll have to dig around in the issues of Ring Magazine from the early '90s. Have fun.

Poet

"Once again conveniently skipping over the point that there's a big difference between "one of the greatest" and "the greatest". Learn the difference."

I have learnt it a long ago. And I know all about this...thanks Poet but you can tell this to some one else not me. Let me clarify. Louis , Ali and for old timers Dempsey is one of the best of all time. I pick Louis, you Ali, Arcel may be Dempsey (as does Mike Casey I think). Point is they were good enough to be considered the top guy depending on how you look it.

Similarly I and many objective boxing fans believe that Lewis had one of the best right hands. Similar to Louis and Shavers and Baer if you may say so.
Hank picks Lewis , I pick Louis you Shavers or any body else may be. There is no sin in this as in the former. Opinions vary. Lewis has one of the best right hands and many can pick him the top guy on that. You can argue all you like but they have their reasons. Your not understaning them does not make it void.

230 pounders generally carry more bone in their chin and have bigger skeleton than 160 pounders. Hagler had a great chin. P4P the best. Do you think he can take a shot from Shavers or Lewis. I dont. If it is easy , to get one punch KO's we will get them more often. Dont count the weight, I will still say Lewis showed that he could KO guys with one punch, Foreman at his prime did not, neither Baer. Rahman was out cold , as was Golata . These KO's with one punch are not common.

"Ali KOed Liston with one punch. Ali has awesome power now? The point being there's more involved with it then simply "so-and-so had a great right hand".....or a great left-hook, or uppercut or anything else."


I could n't but laugh. That was a knock down punch at best . Liston was not knocked out . He was flopping around. When teh ref did start the count he got up and started to box. Why he lay down for that time is a mystery. Many say he threw the fight. I however believe that it was wrong to stop teh fight, since he did not get a ten count. Tunney was down for 14 secs against Demps too.

Dont confuse a KO and knock down. Rahman was in dream land. Knocked the **** out. Liston was awake and probably waiting for Ali to move to get up. He did get up once the ref started the count. Big difference between the two.

And anyways Lewis did consistently damage his opponents with his right hand, not once in a life time like Ali or some other heavy weights. Once can be a fluke I doubt its a fluke if its more than that.

I am sorry unless coming from Cus or Rooney I dont see, why should I take that comment seriously. Rather than being a great defensive fighter, Tyson's defense was his offense" . I heard that. If I quote some one its up to me to find the source not the other guy.

Anyways to soothe your nerves I do not at all agree with Hank here. Ali had the better defense. Period.

[Greatest1942]

Flavor of the month. Latest is the greatest. Put up a windsock and watch Hank blow with it.




Once again conveniently skipping over the point that there's a big difference between "one of the greatest" and "the greatest". Learn the difference.




230 pounders are no more immune to KOs then anyone else. Last time I checked they don't carry that weight in their chins. The issue is how good their chin is not how much they weigh.




Not all opinions have credibility. Bert Sugar has loads of opinions but I'm under no obligation to respect them as Sugar has no credibility.....and to my eyes neither does someone who blows with whatever way the hype winds are blowing like Kaplan did.




Ali KOed Liston with one punch. Ali has awesome power now? The point being there's more involved with it then simply "so-and-so had a great right hand".....or a great left-hook, or uppercut or anything else.




And this is an issue how? I'm already on record as rating Shavers the hardest punching Heavy of all time. Quick Tillis got stopped in the first round by Tim Witherspoon. Tillis took Tyson to a decision. Does that mean Tyson can't punch now?




Rahman never saw the punch coming. Lesser punchers then Lennox have gotten KOs over chinny opponents like Rahman by hitting them with something they didn't see coming. Nobody is claiming they had "the greatest right hand in history" because of it.




It was one of his Rooney era trainers since you're so obsessed with this point. To paraphrase, his point was "rather than being a great defensive fighter, Tyson's defense was his offense". Want the name? You'll have to dig around in the issues of Ring Magazine from the early '90s. Have fun.

Poet

"And this is an issue how? I'm already on record as rating Shavers the hardest punching Heavy of all time. Quick Tillis got stopped in the first round by Tim Witherspoon. Tillis took Tyson to a decision. Does that mean Tyson can't punch now?"

Funny in your example Tyson does not knock the guy out. I said Foreman knocked the guy out. Shavers did too. Difference Foreman clearly had to land multiple blows to do it, Shavers did with one punch.
Seeing the video , it appears Norton was conscious after being hit by Foreman could not get up . He didn't look to be conscious against Shavers.

To counter this you pick a guy Tyson could not Knock out? Sorry its lame. I picked a guy both knocked out, and did so early.



It is the issue because it shows that Foreman was inept at getting one punch KO's and his punches did not have the snap to get the one punch Ko's. Shavers had them and so had Lewis.. Not Foreman. Foreman was more of a clubbing puncher with classic heavy hands. So I rate the right hand of the first two over Foreman...understood?

Shavers might be the harder puncher, but against top opponents Lewis right hand did more damage , meaning he won most fights , Shavers did not win mostly against ranked contenders. Doesn't matter both had great right hands. Just because Hank rates Lewis as the best , doesn't negate Shavers power.

May be Hank saw Lewis vs Golota, Rahman, Briggs and Mason and saw enough evidence. I dont agree that Lewis has the best right of all time. But surely a case can be made of it, as a case can be made of ranking Ali as #1 or Louis #1 or Dempsey #1 or Rock #1. Depends.



And one last thing in boxing the punches you dont see are the ones which often knock you out. That's why a fast hand which carries good power is better at knocking out guys than a comparatively slower hand with lesser snap and more power.

There is an old adage in boxing power is teh last to go. when Louis lost his snap and timing , he still had his power , but in old age he did not get as many knock outs. Snap and timing matters.

Understand the difference.

Thats why sometimes people rate Louis or Lewis or Shavers as the best right hand and not Foreman.
Okay?

[StarshipTrooper]

"Once again conveniently skipping over the point that there's a big difference between "one of the greatest" and "the greatest". Learn the difference."

I have learnt it a long ago. And I know all about this...thanks Poet but you can tell this to some one else not me. Let me clarify. Louis , Ali and for old timers Dempsey is one of the best of all time. I pick Louis, you Ali, Arcel may be Dempsey (as does Mike Casey I think). Point is they were good enough to be considered the top guy depending on how you look it.

Similarly I and many objective boxing fans believe that Lewis had one of the best right hands. Similar to Louis and Shavers and Baer if you may say so.
Hank picks Lewis , I pick Louis you Shavers or any body else may be. There is no sin in this as in the former. Opinions vary. Lewis has one of the best right hands and many can pick him the top guy on that. You can argue all you like but they have their reasons. Your not understaning them does not make it void.

230 pounders generally carry more bone in their chin and have bigger skeleton than 160 pounders. Hagler had a great chin. P4P the best. Do you think he can take a shot from Shavers or Lewis. I dont. If it is easy , to get one punch KO's we will get them more often. Dont count the weight, I will still say Lewis showed that he could KO guys with one punch, Foreman at his prime did not, neither Baer. Rahman was out cold , as was Golata . These KO's with one punch are not common.

"Ali KOed Liston with one punch. Ali has awesome power now? The point being there's more involved with it then simply "so-and-so had a great right hand".....or a great left-hook, or uppercut or anything else."


I could n't but laugh. That was a knock down punch at best . Liston was not knocked out . He was flopping around. When teh ref did start the count he got up and started to box. Why he lay down for that time is a mystery. Many say he threw the fight. I however believe that it was wrong to stop teh fight, since he did not get a ten count. Tunney was down for 14 secs against Demps too.

Dont confuse a KO and knock down. Rahman was in dream land. Knocked the **** out. Liston was awake and probably waiting for Ali to move to get up. He did get up once the ref started the count. Big difference between the two.

And anyways Lewis did consistently damage his opponents with his right hand, not once in a life time like Ali or some other heavy weights. Once can be a fluke I doubt its a fluke if its more than that.

I am sorry unless coming from Cus or Rooney I dont see, why should I take that comment seriously. Rather than being a great defensive fighter, Tyson's defense was his offense" . I heard that. If I quote some one its up to me to find the source not the other guy.

Anyways to soothe your nerves I do not at all agree with Hank here. Ali had the better defense. Period.

I'm sorry, but if the comment comes from Hank Kaplan rather then Cus or Rooney I don't see why I should take it seriously? And btw, this is a post on a boxing website not a paper submitted to a peer review board. If knowing the name of the person who said that is important to you then it's up to you to do the fishing. I'm not under any obligation to supply it since it's of no particular importance to me.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

"And this is an issue how? I'm already on record as rating Shavers the hardest punching Heavy of all time. Quick Tillis got stopped in the first round by Tim Witherspoon. Tillis took Tyson to a decision. Does that mean Tyson can't punch now?"

Funny in your example Tyson does not knock the guy out. I said Foreman knocked the guy out. Shavers did too. Difference Foreman clearly had to land multiple blows to do it, Shavers did with one punch.
Seeing the video , it appears Norton was conscious after being hit by Foreman could not get up . He didn't look to be conscious against Shavers.

To counter this you pick a guy Tyson could not Knock out? Sorry its lame. I picked a guy both knocked out, and did so early.



It is the issue because it shows that Foreman was inept at getting one punch KO's and his punches did not have the snap to get the one punch Ko's. Shavers had them and so had Lewis.. Not Foreman. Foreman was more of a clubbing puncher with classic heavy hands. So I rate the right hand of the first two over Foreman...understood?

Shavers might be the harder puncher, but against top opponents Lewis right hand did more damage , meaning he won most fights , Shavers did not win mostly against ranked contenders. Doesn't matter both had great right hands. Just because Hank rates Lewis as the best , doesn't negate Shavers power.

May be Hank saw Lewis vs Golota, Rahman, Briggs and Mason and saw enough evidence. I dont agree that Lewis has the best right of all time. But surely a case can be made of it, as a case can be made of ranking Ali as #1 or Louis #1 or Dempsey #1 or Rock #1. Depends.



And one last thing in boxing the punches you dont see are the ones which often knock you out. That's why a fast hand which carries good power is better at knocking out guys than a comparatively slower hand with lesser snap and more power.

There is an old adage in boxing power is teh last to go. when Louis lost his snap and timing , he still had his power , but in old age he did not get as many knock outs. Snap and timing matters.

Understand the difference.

Thats why sometimes people rate Louis or Lewis or Shavers as the best right hand and not Foreman.
Okay?

10 paragraphs of illogic where you try to blow off the fact that he was unable to KO the guy at all :rolleyes9: Do you even read the **** you post?

Poet

[Greatest1942]

10 paragraphs of illogic where you try to blow off the fact that he was unable to KO the guy at all :rolleyes9: Do you even read the **** you post?

Poet

I post illogical stuff. Hank is an idiot. Mr Poet who says Ali knocked out Liston with one punch is the knowledgeable man here. No doubt sir.

Just because some one does not agree with your views does not make them illogical. I will say again Lewis had a great right hand , one of the best in history, and if some one calls him best I have no problems.

Actually its a toughie, one of the most knowledgeable guys on boxing vs a guy who unhealthily hung up on Ali.

[Greatest1942]

This thread is a testament to how much of a joke this forum has become. It is now a Lennox Lewis fan club and anybody who speaks any truth about Lennox is banned or flamed.

I claim this thread is ridiculous and I get flamed by Lennox nuthuggers but this idiot is saying Lennox would beat Ali and is the GOAT. He should be flamed and red K'd to death but here he is.

What a laugh.

Lewis is not the greatest heavy, neither is he will be the fav vs Ali...but honestly dont u give him any chance?

[CarlosG815]

Lewis is not the greatest heavy, neither is he will be the fav vs Ali...but honestly dont u give him any chance?

I gave my answer in my first post in this thread...

I give Lennox NO chance vs a prime Ali and anybody with half a wit would know the same.

[JAB5239]

This thread is a testament to how much of a joke this forum has become. It is now a Lennox Lewis fan club and anybody who speaks any truth about Lennox is banned or flamed.

I claim this thread is ridiculous and I get flamed by Lennox nuthuggers but this idiot is saying Lennox would beat Ali and is the GOAT. He should be flamed and red K'd to death but here he is.

What a laugh.

What I see is people posting opinions you simply don't agree with. And not a single poster has "flamed" you, nor has anybody been banned for not liking Lewis. And if you've noticed, since I got rid of your buddy for insulting other posters and trolling, there have been hardly any Lewis threads. Now I'd appreciate it if you kept this kind of rubbish out of this section and just stuck to boxing. Thank you.