i think lennox could beat ali.. lennox= greatest HW ever?

[BigStereotype]

Ken Norton = GOAT 1
Oliver McCall = GOAT 1a

[StarshipTrooper]

Who of that bunch at that point in their career will you favour over lewis?

Sonny Liston.

[Mugwump]

I don't know who'd win. I mean, I'd favour Ali because of his speed, jab and first rate constitution. But any fighter with Lennox's attributes is a genuine threat and Ali would need to bring his A-game.

I think an important factor would be the number of rounds. I've often wondered what effect fighting over the shorter distance would have had on Ali's abilities and record.

Would he be just as dominant, less or more?

Indeed, would Lewis be a better fighter over fifteen?

[Sugarj]

When was his prime ? 6 years before Norton, you mean pre exile right?

I suppose his prime was in the Folley fight. right?

Or was it against Doug Jones, Chuvalo etc etc.

Who did Ali beat in his supposed prime that you think resembles Lewis stylistically?
Who of that bunch at that point in their career will you favour over lewis?
Anyways I favour Ali, but I give Lewis a chance. Which is quite reasonable IMO. Since Ali was troubled by lesser fighters than Lewis.

I see the fight 60-40 in favour of Ali.

I felt that Ali probably did look better against Williams and Terrell (very late 66 and early 67) than Folley. Some people rave about the Folley performance, but I actually thought Ali looked a bit rough in patches that night.

But yea, Ali never fought someone who was stylistically like Lewis in his prime. The closest was Terrell, but I'm well aware of how inferior he was to Lewis.

But turning your argument completely back at you, Lewis never fought anyone remotely like Ali.......and we all know that Lewis was troubled by 'lesser fighters' than Ali. Ha ha. We all know fighters are human beings, not machines..... and legends have had many a bad day in the office. For example prime Ali would pulverise the Lewis that turned up for Rahman 1. In turn Lewis would almost certainly outpoint the Ali that turned up for Jimmy Young.

The deterioration in Ali's skills, reactions, athleticism and mobility as the 70s went on were plain to see, despite the fact that he was still a superb heavyweight. He was clearly better in the very late 60s though. So yes, I would give Lewis a chance by decision in the late 70s over twelve rounds. But even against the 1977 Ali (who met Shavers) or the 1978 Ali when regaining his title from Spinks......I wouldn't bet on it. Even 'that' Ali in his two last wins ever looked pretty useful.

But hell, we agree on the outcome. Ali would be favorite.

[Sugarj]

I don't know who'd win. I mean, I'd favour Ali because of his speed, jab and first rate constitution. But any fighter with Lennox's attributes is a genuine threat and Ali would need to bring his A-game.

I think an important factor would be the number of rounds. I've often wondered what effect fighting over the shorter distance would have had on Ali's abilities and record.

Would he be just as dominant, less or more?

Indeed, would Lewis be a better fighter over fifteen?

I think the shorter distance favours Ali. I think he'd thrive very well in the 12 round era, his workrate was excellent. Ali vs Frazier 2 was the most one sided of their three meetings and that was a 12 round fight. There is a fair argument to suggest that Ali would have taken fight 1 over the twelve round distance or at least earned a majority draw.

The extra weight that Lewis carried in his prime would surely cause him grief over an extra three rounds to the 15 round distance. Hell, he struggled over 12 rounds at times. He looked very tired against Mavrovich and he was in real danger in my opinion of being outworked by Holyfield in their rematch. Dare I say it.......I think Holyfield may well have nicked that fight if it were scheduled for another three rounds.

[young_robbed]

Who did Ali beat in his supposed prime that you think resembles Lewis stylistically?

Ernie Terrell. Joe Bugner X2, Chuck Wepner, Cleveland Williams, and Sonny Liston. Also a guy like Alvin Lewis was similar to Lewis. Terrell has got to be the best representation of Lewis styleistically. While I think it would be closer Ali would still decision Lewis clearly.

Terrell didn't have the power Lewis did, but Terrell probably had a better jab then Lewis. And Ali would avoid a lot of Lewis's shots anyway and had one of the best chins and hearts of all time, so power doesn't come into play.
Who did Lewis beat in his prime that ressembles Ali? No one resembles Ali except maybe Holmes or Tillis. and they still weren't as good as Ali.

[young_robbed]

I don't know who'd win. I mean, I'd favour Ali because of his speed, jab and first rate constitution. But any fighter with Lennox's attributes is a genuine threat and Ali would need to bring his A-game.

Lennox's style doesn't threaten Ali was much as swarmers. I can't really think of anyone that could outbox Ali. Guy that would come the closest would be Ken Norton, but Ali in his prime would decisively beat Norton.

I agree, it would be interesting to see Lennox's height and power come in play. I believe Ali's heart and durability would be really important though. Lewis I think would be figured out by Ali eventually and possibly stopped in the late rounds. If it's a 15 rounder, Ali wins by TKO very late. Ali had good power in the late rounds.

[StarshipTrooper]

Lewis' fighting style plays against him as well: That straight upright European amatuer style is not suited for the pros. Against opponents who actually know what the **** they're doing (ie. none of today's Heavyweights) it usually gets you starched. Great for the ams, inferior for the pros.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

Sonny Liston.

Poet I knew someone would bring up Liston.

1) Liston was never in his prime nor was he focused for that fight. I favor Liston over Lewis too. Nor is this an excuse, but Liston was not the same fighter he was.

2) To the best of my knowledge Ali fans claim he was in his prime vs Terell to Folley and none of them are favoured against Lewis. None of them had Lewis's power too. Tereel had a great jab and that's all. If you go that far back Cooper and Jones are there too as is Sonny Banks. None of these guys had Lewis's power, sorry.

Sugraj, hell we agree on the outcome. I only say that Lewis was better than anyone Ali beat at his prime and it will be his toughest fight. Toughest by a large extent. If Sonny liston was in his prime in 1964 I think it would have been Ali's toughest too. And I will stand by it. Ali was troubled by lesser fighters than Lewis and vice versa. Its moronic to completely ignore a fighter like Lewis. As I said I favour Ali, but in 5 fight series I will bet that Lewis will win one.

young_robbed robbed sorry I cant compare Ernie Terrell. Joe Bugner X2, Chuck Wepner, Cleveland Williams to Lewis. Williams was a shot fighter literally and figuratively. If you count that version of Williams as equal to Lewis sorry it doesn't reflect well on your objectiveness. Joe Bugner like Lewis ? what did he do equal to Lewis ? Chuck Wepner ? He was a club level fighter.

Terrel compares to Lewis as Sugraj pointed out. But there are major differences

1) Lewis is the bigger fighter by a big margin.

2) Lewis has better power in his punches and has a big right hand, that Terrell dreamed of but never had.

3) As a fighter Lewis is top 20 ATG or top 15 Terrel is top 40 may be..

Liston was not similar to Lewis and neither was he in his prime. Please watch some videos before commenting.

"Guy that would come the closest would be Ken Norton, but Ali in his prime would decisively beat Norton."

Well all we know is Norton had the measure of Ali. I think stylistically he gives headache to any version of Ali. No matter how fast Ali's jab is it will be caught in the parry and no matter how fast he is he will still have to eat the return jab. What you are saying is simple speculation which is not based on facts.

I will simply point out the view of one of the best ever boxing historians. Hank Klapnan about Lewis . "Greatest right hand in the history of the heavyweight division and I would dare anyone to challenge that", so says Hank of Lewis. And in fact, Hank Kaplan also stated his opinion that in head-to-head matchups involving the greatest Heavyweights, he'd favour Lewis to finish with the overall best record out of all of them. Do I agree with Hank? No, but yea for those who say Lewis cant win any, and anyone who says other wise is an idiot, call Hank an idiot too then.

I am gonna say one last thing before winding up. This whole speculation that Ali will never be bothered by power really upsets me.I know of no heavy including Ali who is not bothered by power. Didn't he go down? Wasn't he hurt? He was almost knocked out by a Cooper left hook , was really hurt by Frazier, where he wasn't quite dancing too. Was down against Sonny Banks.
Boy, if all these can trouble Ali with his power why can't top 15 ATGS with murderous punching powers. God , Ali's chin is made up of bones and human tissues only, it is not impregnable. Nor was Chuvalo's.

Thhis arguement is thrown it to just nullify anything. He aint bothered by power and he will be never hurt and he will box to merry land. Yea in round 11th of Frazier Ali 1 after he was hurt I did see that he was not at all bothered by power. Bottom line once you are really hurt its not easy to just box. He is a human and not god. Ali had one of the best chins of all time , not only heavy weight but of all divisions. But it was a human chin.

[Greatest1942]

I felt that Ali probably did look better against Williams and Terrell (very late 66 and early 67) than Folley. Some people rave about the Folley performance, but I actually thought Ali looked a bit rough in patches that night.

But yea, Ali never fought someone who was stylistically like Lewis in his prime. The closest was Terrell, but I'm well aware of how inferior he was to Lewis.

But turning your argument completely back at you, Lewis never fought anyone remotely like Ali.......and we all know that Lewis was troubled by 'lesser fighters' than Ali. Ha ha. We all know fighters are human beings, not machines..... and legends have had many a bad day in the office. For example prime Ali would pulverise the Lewis that turned up for Rahman 1. In turn Lewis would almost certainly outpoint the Ali that turned up for Jimmy Young.

The deterioration in Ali's skills, reactions, athleticism and mobility as the 70s went on were plain to see, despite the fact that he was still a superb heavyweight. He was clearly better in the very late 60s though. So yes, I would give Lewis a chance by decision in the late 70s over twelve rounds. But even against the 1977 Ali (who met Shavers) or the 1978 Ali when regaining his title from Spinks......I wouldn't bet on it. Even 'that' Ali in his two last wins ever looked pretty useful.

But hell, we agree on the outcome. Ali would be favorite.

In most of his fights Ali outweighed his opponents. Even George had only 4 pounds over him. I dont think he fought anyone who was so big and so skill ful. Again Lewis will be able to reach him from outside unlike most of the heavy's who fought Ali.

Speed does overcome size to a degree but not fully. If a big guy is skilled it will be difficult for the smaller man. Spinks, Shavers are not equal to Lewis. Spinks has a barely winning record. Shavers beat Young in his 12th fight, then lost each of his big fight. Shavers troubled Ali greatly he landed good clean shots. Lewis had a much better jab than Shavers and I do see him outpointing that Ali easily.

You talk of Lewis stamina, how good was Shavers stamina? He was known to gas badly. He did fight Ali okay, but he had to conserve a lot of energy and was not at his best. When you are trying to last...you never can go all out and at your murderous best. See foreman vs young.

Last but not least Lewis did fight Holyfield who although not similar to Ali has similarities.