1 Billion: Is there a case of Tyson being a top 5 heavyweight? not in my opinion

[Walt Liquor]

The fear (indeed, I think the word "terror" is more apt) has always been there. From what I've read D'Amato not only knew about it but actively exploited it - harnessing Tyson's negative energies into a potent attacking force. I remember years ago when he was in his prime someone (I can't remember who) said to me "that man's scared". At the time I laughed it off (how can the world's baddest man be scared?) but those words came rushing back when I saw the Tyson documentary - especially in the context of Tyson's outrageous response to Holyfield's outright bullying of him.

During the nineties there didn't seem to be anyone around who suspected Tyson had an Achilles heel (D'Amato was very, very clever in masking Tyson's weaknesses through the promotion of the "Iron Mike" myth), much less the tools to hit it.
I do recall Bonecrusher running for eleven rounds and then throwing caution to the wind for a few seconds in the twelfth. His reaction at the end of the bout suggested to me that he was kicking himself over falling for the media spin.
Ruddock came close but he just lacked that little extra class to put him into the top tier.
Holyfield was Tyson's nemesis. And I don't think it would have made much difference had Tyson been prime. Tyson needed to be the bully in the ring and it simply isn't in Holyfield's nature to submit to anyone.



I think it would have been a similar story had Tyson faced many of the former greats. Marciano, Dempsey, Ali, Frasier etc. these guys just aren't going to be intimidated - and they certainly have the tools to inflict lots of pain on Mike. Take Marciano for instance. If Tyson thought Holyfield played rough he would
have no answer than a certain DQ against the Rock.

Amen.........

[Sugarj]

The point is he might have showed heart- but he never came back from behind to win and how can we give him an attribute that he never showed in his career? there are stories by Teddy Atlas that in the amateurs Tyson was destroying a guy but the guy was refusing to quit and Tyson almost quit

I'd never expect a favourable account of Mike from Atlas. It is asking a bit much when you consider their past.

But many legends of the sport in their prime never came back from behind to win and poor Tyson is the one probably most criticised for this. Despite the fact that he was so far ahead of his opposition that the likelyhood of it happening was very remote.

Did Roy Jones ever come back from behind to win in his prime?
Sugar Ray Leonard?
Shane Mosley?
Floyd Mayweather?

Nobody doubts the hearts of the above (all pound for pound number 1s in their prime) despite to my memory, never in their prime having turned a losing fight around.

Lets get one thing straight though, many folks seem to think Tyson collapsed mentally against Douglas and Holyfield in his first two defeats. Nonsense! He fought it out till the bitter end both times and never stopped trying. He was simply beaten by better men on those nights.

[Sugarj]

Yes. Tyson dropped this big irish guy like 4 or 5 times, but the irish guy kept getting up. By round 2 tyson came back to the corner and told teddy he can't do this. teddy screamed at him and pushed him back into the ring, screaming " don't you ****ing quit! Don't even think about it! You said you wanted to be a fighter now show me! "

Tyson then finally knocked him out. Then crying he thanked atlas. It was a close call.

I have tyson roughly at #13 for ATG HW

How old was Tyson at the time, 14 or 15?

He was just a child fighting in the amateurs, his fighting heart can't be questioned at that age!

Hell, at that age I wussed out of asking girls out that I fancied, and skived off school if I hadn't done my homework!! Ha ha

[kendom]

I'd never expect a favourable account of Mike from Atlas. It is asking a bit much when you consider their past.

But many legends of the sport in their prime never came back from behind to win and poor Tyson is the one probably most criticised for this. Despite the fact that he was so far ahead of his opposition that the likelyhood of it happening was very remote.

Did Roy Jones ever come back from behind to win in his prime?
Sugar Ray Leonard?
Shane Mosley?
Floyd Mayweather?

Nobody doubts the hearts of the above (all pound for pound number 1s in their prime) despite to my memory, never in their prime having turned a losing fight around.

Lets get one thing straight though, many folks seem to think Tyson collapsed mentally against Douglas and Holyfield in his first two defeats. Nonsense! He fought it out till the bitter end both times and never stopped trying. He was simply beaten by better men on those nights.

Jones didnt fight the good quality opposition to have to come back from behind to win a fight, as for Sugar ray Leonard you seem to have forgotten about the 1st Hearns fight- wasnt he behind and came back to win? so he did show heart, and also during his fight with Philadelphias Kevin Howard Leonard was knocked down in the fourth round and came back to stop him in the ninth round
As for Mayweather he hasnt fought the quality of opposition to test him just like with Roy Jones.
Its about the fact that in these fights he wasnt able to come back to win, after his opponents stood up to him he just collapsed into his shell. And i would argue that biting off someones ear is a sign of collapsing mentally.

[kendom]

How old was Tyson at the time, 14 or 15?

He was just a child fighting in the amateurs, his fighting heart can't be questioned at that age!

Hell, at that age I wussed out of asking girls out that I fancied, and skived off school if I hadn't done my homework!! Ha ha

Its just to illustrate that Tyson always had those fears from a young age- as a refutation for ppl who say that he only gained the fear after losing to buster douglas - anyone can take a beating in the ring, itgs about coming back from behind to win.

[hent]

The fear (indeed, I think the word "terror" is more apt) has always been there. From what I've read D'Amato not only knew about it but actively exploited it - harnessing Tyson's negative energies into a potent attacking force. I remember years ago when he was in his prime someone (I can't remember who) said to me "that man's scared". At the time I laughed it off (how can the world's baddest man be scared?) but those words came rushing back when I saw the Tyson documentary - especially in the context of Tyson's outrageous response to Holyfield's outright bullying of him.

During the nineties there didn't seem to be anyone around who suspected Tyson had an Achilles heel (D'Amato was very, very clever in masking Tyson's weaknesses through the promotion of the "Iron Mike" myth), much less the tools to hit it.

I do recall Bonecrusher running for eleven rounds and then throwing caution to the wind for a few seconds in the twelfth. His reaction at the end of the bout suggested to me that he was kicking himself over falling for the media spin. Ruddock came close but he just lacked that little extra class to put him into the top tier.

Holyfield was Tyson's nemesis. And I don't think it would have made much difference had Tyson been prime. Tyson needed to be the bully in the ring and it simply isn't in Holyfield's nature to submit to anyone.

I think it would have been a similar story had Tyson faced many of the former greats. Marciano, Dempsey, Ali, Frasier etc. these guys just aren't going to be intimidated - and they certainly have the tools to inflict lots of pain on Mike. Take Marciano for instance. If Tyson thought Holyfield played rough he would have no answer than a certain DQ against the Rock.

You dont become the youngest heavyweight champion and clean out the division if your mentally weak. Get wins over Ruddockx2, Tucker, Williams, Thomas, Golota, Smith, Berbick, Tubbs, Biggs, Brunox2, Holmes, Spinks and Seldon. I dont have a list but there arent many heavyweights with a better resume than that.

Marciano would get KOed by Tyson in less than 2 rounds. Simply too small, crude and he doesnt have a good enough chin. Holyfield is much more versatile than Marciano. Marciano would not fight anything like Holyfield did either. Dempsey never fought a black fighter but im guessing youve heard hes great so thats enough for you to think he could beat Tyson.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

There is no way --- absolutely none --- to justify him in the top-5 if you place any emphasis at all on achievements. Relative to his talent, Tyson is one of the least accomplished champions in history.

I can see a top-10 spot (based heavily on head-to-head), but not top-5.

[hent]

Some include the likes of Marciano, Liston, Dempsey, Johnson, Frazier and Foreman in their top 5 lists. If these guys have a case for being in the top 5 Tyson definately does.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Some include the likes of Marciano, Liston, Dempsey, Johnson, Frazier and Foreman in their top 5 lists. If these guys have a case for being in the top 5 Tyson definately does.

I disagree, at least in the case of Dempsey, Foreman & Frazier, & possibly Liston, too. There's just absolutely no way Tyson's resume stacks upto those guys --- it's not even debatable. Even Marciano & Johnson, who had their troubles (Marciano fighting in a weakened era, & Johnson avoiding so many top-rated contenders during his title tenure), still have stronger, more lasting CV's than Tyson.

Between 1991-2005, Tyson's body of work is pitifully underwhelming, stood next to his actual ability.

[Steak]

bah, Tyson's achievements were no worse than Dempsey's. Dempsey gets horribly overrated by some people.

Tyson sure as hell didnt hav longevity, but he cleaned our his division in those first few years as champ. and this isnt an exaggeration of cleaned out that people often use, he had wins over almost every single top fighter around at the time.

Dempsey's era wasnt particularly good either, and Tyson beat just as much top competition as Dempsey.



oh yeah and I dont find much argument for Tyson being top 5 either. its just farfetched.