''Official Poll'' Is Jack Johnson Overrated?

[Wild Blue Yonda]

He's over-rated, undoubtedly. I cannot find room for him in my top-10 of all-time at Heavy.

I'd also have been very interested to see Johnson's vaunted defense pitted against something it never was --- the multi-angled, short & swift combination punching of a Louis, or a Dempsey. Johnson never faced anything like that at all.

[Obama]

He's actually become under rated. People just don't understand how good Sam Langford, Sam McVea, Joe Jeannette, Harry Wills (schooled him sparring, something he'd later repeat when ancient against future Demspey opponent Firpo), and hell even Tommy Burns were.

[Perfect Plex]

He's actually become under rated. People just don't understand how good Sam Langford, Sam McVea, Joe Jeannette, Harry Wills (schooled him sparring, something he'd later repeat when ancient against future Demspey opponent Firpo), and hell even Tommy Burns were.

How would you respond to people saying those fighters were green/pre prime & undersized?

[Terry A]

He never fought Harry Wills

He's actually become under rated. People just don't understand how good Sam Langford, Sam McVea, Joe Jeannette, Harry Wills (schooled him sparring, something he'd later repeat when ancient against future Demspey opponent Firpo), and hell even Tommy Burns were.

What credibility does he warrant for beating Sam Langford when Sam only weighed in at 156 lbs? And if he did have the better over Wills in "sparring", why didn't he ever fight him? (I think Wills would have beaten him).

No disrespect intended at all towards you or Tommy Burns, but seriously, "People just don't understand how good......even Tommy Burns were." Really?

Curious as to exactly where you rate Tommy Burns on the all-time 100 Heavyweight boxer list? He's not on mine. Guys who never won the title, like Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle, dare I even say Gerry Cooney, would have destroyed him. And the alphabet fellas, Greg Page (may he R.I.P.), Mike Dokes, Tim Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker & Tony Tubbs would have beaten him up!

James Toney would have beaten him, as would Roy Jones. I really think even John Ruiz beats Tommy Burns. Mac Foster beats him, as does BOB Foster! Mr. Burns was 5'7" and never weighed more than a beefy cruiserweight. Fought his best fights as a light heavyweight.

Imagine matching him up in his prime and at his height & weight against a true heavyweight of the modern era? First off, the commissions wouldn't allow it. Second of all, Tommy Burns is no Mickey Walker.

Sorry to rant a little. But gee-miny-crickets, Tommy Burns was not all that good in the pantheon of really good fighters.

No disrespect intended. Just a fair debate of the facts.

[Steak]

I dont like the word 'overrated', because a fighter can be overrated or underrated depending on who you asked.


however, those who put him as a top 3 heavyweight undoubtedly overrate the hell out of him. His resume flat out does not cut it. McVea was a teenager, Jeanette was clearly very green, and Langford didnt even weigh 160lbs. not to mention Johnson refused to fight all three of them when they actually were at their best, when he was champion.

People that rate Johnson top 3 whilst not even having Wills in their top ten without a shadow of a doubt overrate the hell out of Johnson. Wills actually fought McVea, Jeanette and Langford in their primes(or at the very least closer to it) and beat them multiple times. Add in the fact that Wills beat a number of top conteders such as Fred Fulton, Jackson, Firpo and Weinhart and I dont think its a big stretch to say that Wills beat more top competition.

as for Johnson's title reign? subpar. he feasted on second raters, old men(Jeffries) and middleweights. and yet these natural 160lbers actually took him to a draw and dropped him. Imagine Sergio Martinez dropping/drawing Wladimir, or Monzon dropping/drawing Ali. come on. the guy didnt face the best heavyweights of his era during his title reign, period.

[I am tyler]

I don't think he should be overated. He was way ahead of his time in terms of style and skills. He also was the first black heavyweight champ which can't be overated. I think it would be unfair to match him with todays Heavy's because they would probably mince him. But if they fought back then in that era with that era of styles I would say Jack beats them.

[StarshipTrooper]

What credibility does he warrant for beating Sam Langford when Sam only weighed in at 156 lbs? And if he did have the better over Wills in "sparring", why didn't he ever fight him? (I think Wills would have beaten him).

No disrespect intended at all towards you or Tommy Burns, but seriously, "People just don't understand how good......even Tommy Burns were." Really?

Curious as to exactly where you rate Tommy Burns on the all-time 100 Heavyweight boxer list? He's not on mine. Guys who never won the title, like Earnie Shavers, Ron Lyle, dare I even say Gerry Cooney, would have destroyed him. And the alphabet fellas, Greg Page (may he R.I.P.), Mike Dokes, Tim Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker & Tony Tubbs would have beaten him up!

James Toney would have beaten him, as would Roy Jones. I really think even John Ruiz beats Tommy Burns. Mac Foster beats him, as does BOB Foster! Mr. Burns was 5'7" and never weighed more than a beefy cruiserweight. Fought his best fights as a light heavyweight.

Imagine matching him up in his prime and at his height & weight against a true heavyweight of the modern era? First off, the commissions wouldn't allow it. Second of all, Tommy Burns is no Mickey Walker.

Sorry to rant a little. But gee-miny-crickets, Tommy Burns was not all that good in the pantheon of really good fighters.

No disrespect intended. Just a fair debate of the facts.

Actually Burns was a very good to great Middleweight, he just wasn't all that great at Heavy. Imagine if Marvin Hagler had challenged Larry Holmes.....I would expect Holmes to win given in big reach advantage but I could see one of the commisions making the matchup back in the early 80s so it isn't THAT far-fetched. Back around the turn of the century it was routine for Middleweights to fight Heavies and one of them, Bob Fitzsimmons, legitimately won the Heavyweight title.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

I dont like the word 'overrated', because a fighter can be overrated or underrated depending on who you asked.


however, those who put him as a top 3 heavyweight undoubtedly overrate the hell out of him. His resume flat out does not cut it. McVea was a teenager, Jeanette was clearly very green, and Langford didnt even weigh 160lbs. not to mention Johnson refused to fight all three of them when they actually were at their best, when he was champion.

People that rate Johnson top 3 whilst not even having Wills in their top ten without a shadow of a doubt overrate the hell out of Johnson. Wills actually fought McVea, Jeanette and Langford in their primes(or at the very least closer to it) and beat them multiple times. Add in the fact that Wills beat a number of top conteders such as Fred Fulton, Jackson, Firpo and Weinhart and I dont think its a big stretch to say that Wills beat more top competition.

as for Johnson's title reign? subpar. he feasted on second raters, old men(Jeffries) and middleweights. and yet these natural 160lbers actually took him to a draw and dropped him. Imagine Sergio Martinez dropping/drawing Wladimir, or Monzon dropping/drawing Ali. come on. the guy didnt face the best heavyweights of his era during his title reign, period.

I have Johnson ranked 3rd all-time at Heavy but I also have Wills bouncing around from 9-12 depending on my mood. Guys like Jeanette, McVea, and Godfrey routinely make my top-20.

Poet

[IronDanHamza]

Actually Burns was a very good to great Middleweight, he just wasn't all that great at Heavy. Imagine if Marvin Hagler had challenged Larry Holmes.....I would expect Holmes to win given in big reach advantage but I could see one of the commisions making the matchup back in the early 80s so it isn't THAT far-fetched. Back around the turn of the century it was routine for Middleweights to fight Heavies and one of them, Bob Fitzsimmons, legitimately won the Heavyweight title.

Poet

Bob was weighing in less than 160 Lbs also.

Would you agree that it Jack Johnson is atleast a Top 10 HW? I certainly do. Which suprisingly seems to be against the consensus here.

I mean, I have read arguments for the likes of the Klitschko brothers and a few other names to be in the Top 10 over him.

That, I can't understand.

[StarshipTrooper]

Would you agree that it Jack Johnson is atleast a Top 10 HW? I certainly do. Which suprisingly seems to be against the consensus here.

Of course. I have Johnson ranked 3rd all-time at Heavyweight.

I mean, I have read arguments for the likes of the Klitschko brothers and a few other names to be in the Top 10 over him.

That, I can't understand.

It's because there are too many posters around here that are hung up on on size and can't get past it in any discussion. People put WAY too much emphasis on weight.

Poet