Liston Vs Foreman

[Miburo]

[QUOTE=-D33Pwaters-;10182099]

Wow, not even sure where to begin here. Ali was in a hostile environment? Are you insane? The entire country was behind him calling for him to KILL Foreman.

All the more reason for Foreman to be motivated. Foreman recalled himself thinking the fight was going to be really easy in the opening rounds.

I was referring/ I thought you meant the whether conditions, in which case would have affected Ali also.

Robinson was not far past his prime during the Maxim fight, he was 31. He was a bit beyond his peak, but those were still prime years. Also his condition had nothing to with him losing that fight, which he dominated, it was the heat that caused him to lose, which was my point.

Then it's a pretty bad comparison, since the heat did not cause Foreman to loose. he wasn't dominating the way Robinson was on Maxim.

Foreman was up at 10. Go take another look.

It was a great example of psychological warfare by Ali, and that more than the boxing aspect led to a great victory.

Congratulations on every single one of your points being falsehoods, I'm honestly amazed.

The heat caused him to tire faster, as he was the far more active fighter. Exactly what happened with SRR. His camp stated he was not mentally in the best state, who would be training in a hostile country with Ali's constant barbs. Like blackirish said, Foreman did not fight that way against any other opponent, he was much more measured and disciplined. Ali got into his head and had the toughness and presence of mind to sit back and survive when he saw he couldn't take him down through actively fighting with him as he tried in the early rounds. It was a great example of switching up gameplans and putting the opponent on tilt, not a masterful boxing exhibition. I do not however think that Ali at that point in his career was a superior fighter to Foreman or that he would win every time they fought. I think he would lost a rematch soundly in fact. I give Ali all credit for the win.

[Vadrigar.]

[QUOTE=Shiranui;10182215]

The heat caused him to tire faster, as he was the far more active fighter. Exactly what happened with SRR. His camp stated he was not mentally in the best state, who would be training in a hostile country with Ali's constant barbs. Like blackirish said, Foreman did not fight that way against any other opponent, he was much more measured and disciplined. Ali got into his head and had the toughness and presence of mind to sit back and survive when he saw he couldn't take him down through actively fighting with him as he tried in the early rounds. It was a great example of switching up gameplans and putting the opponent on tilt, not a masterful boxing exhibition. I do not however think that Ali at that point in his career was a superior fighter to Foreman or that he would win every time they fought. I think he would lost a rematch soundly in fact. I give Ali all credit for the win.

But it also caused Ali to tire, so much so that he changed tactics instead of dancing. Foreman had it pretty easy cutting the ring off, leading one step to Ali's every three. SRR was dominating the fight as you said, but Foreman was not. The two scenarios are not exactly the same.

While it was not a masterful exibition like SRR-Maxim, The sitting back was used as a way of fighting off the ropes too. It wasn't even a significant portion of the fight as many believe. In no way did Ali survive, rather he was blocking most of Foreman's shots, being in control and boxing him in the centre of the ring. Ali outboxed Foreman and made him overcommit with his punches.

I already adressed the "measuring and disciple", saying it was due to Foreman's gameplan, not entirely Ali's mental game, etc. (See my other post in reponce to blackirish.)

Ok that's fine, It's good to give credit. I was about to say you were discrediting his win. With regards to the rematch I believe Ali would do what Jimmy Young did.

[RINGG]

When Liston entered the scene, most heavyweights were around 189lbs. He was a 210 pound brute. Foreman was much the same(but bigger), strong, scary with a powerful jab. Once the aurora if invincibility was gone with Liston he was suddenly beatable much like Tyson. Foreman would take that aurora away from Liston in a few rounds.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

He was also in a bad mental state in the most hostile environment imaginable in sweltering outdoor heat (SRR-Maxim anyone?). The ref didn't even bother counting him out, he just sent him back to his corner, who cares that he got up, Ali was the chosen one (not that I think he would have won at that point). It was also exhaustion, not damage. As I said, Foreman gets stopped by nobody on punishment.

This is an open-ended fight where either man can win & do it quickly, but you are flat-out crazy, in my view, to suggest Liston doesn't have the arsenal to put Foreman away. There is a big tendency with this fight to think of it as a barn-burner, swing-for-the-fences type battle, & while there will be some of that, when you have guys who hit this hard, it's critical to be the better man at setting up your punches, to have the straighter, more accurate shots. With so much power flying about, it's a massive advantage for the more skilled fighter --- & people often wrongly forget the importance of your skill-set in a fight where either man can end the fight with one big shot. IMO, Liston's skills, not his power per se, would be the difference here most likely.

You are crazy to suggest Foreman is invulnerable to Liston's power, though. Liston could clobber anyone into submission.

[barfly12]

I saw both men train

Liston was well passed his prime when I saw him and Foreman was about to fight Frazier. Liston was a better boxer, unlike George used his jab often, and threw straighter, non looping punches. But no man could hit like George and no man could stand in front of him and that includes Sonny. Foreman was surpisingly quick handed and had good footwork. After the Ali fight, Dundee said he was surprised at how good George's footwork was and how nimble his feet/egs were. Liston was a plodder. The same way George took out Lyle, he would have taken out Liston. George, like Dempsey, "was a force". Mac Foster gave Liston all he could handle in sparring, and Foreman was streets of ahead of Mac. But don't get me wrong, Sonny was a great one. Even right before his death, no one wanted to fight him. This includes Frazier and Quarry. They were negotiating for a Chuvalo fight right before he was found dead.

[them_apples]

Foreman was in his prime when Ali stopped him.

yeah but look at the circumstances, half of that was purely the heat and exhaustion. Ali knew this, good move on his part. not only did he tire him out, but he picked the right venue.

I'd pick Foreman to KO Liston. They both got Heavy hands but I can't see Liston taking Foremans punches. I see Foreman in his prime being the quicker of the 2 as well. I'd hate to say it, but Liston is indeed overated to the max on this forum. He would do well against brawlers not named Foreman but anyone with skill in my books beats him. Who did Liston really beat?

[young_robbed]

yeah but look at the circumstances, half of that was purely the heat and exhaustion. Ali knew this, good move on his part. not only did he tire him out, but he picked the right venue.

I'd pick Foreman to KO Liston. They both got Heavy hands but I can't see Liston taking Foremans punches. I see Foreman in his prime being the quicker of the 2 as well. I'd hate to say it, but Liston is indeed overated to the max on this forum. He would do well against brawlers not named Foreman but anyone with skill in my books beats him. Who did Liston really beat?

Ali had to face the heat and exhaustion too. he was the older man and had been through more wars so wouldn't foreman be at the advantage ?
Yeah, the heat had something to do with it, but so did Ali's rope a dope and his countering. and foreman fought like an idiot. A prime Liston would do way better against that Ali then foreman did for sure

Well, Foreman really didn't take so many punches before Ali, and he certainly wasn't the technician Liston was. In his early career Liston definitely faced harder opposition then foreman. Norton and Frazier had been through wars with Ali and clearly weren't the same. Chuvalo was a pretty good fighter but pretty one demensional and predictable. Not that good of a win. He did beat peretela, who was a good boxer. anyone else was a bum PRE-ALI. I think he was matched up with bad opposition to get the title shot

Liston fought Cleveland Williams, a fast slugger with knockout power, and certainly Williams was in his prime. He also beat Eddie machen, who was a very good mover with boxing skill. and there's the Patterson wins, who was better then the Frazier foreman fought. There's dejohn, harris, whitehurst, and Marshall too.

I can't see foreman taking liston's punches, myself. Liston was more proven early on in their career foreman really didn't get hit that hard. Liston took hard punches early in his career very good. foreman we don't know about.

I'll take Liston to stop foreman early in a slugging match where foreman has his moments but Liston's technical skill and jab win the battle.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

yeah but look at the circumstances, half of that was purely the heat and exhaustion. Ali knew this, good move on his part. not only did he tire him out, but he picked the right venue.

I'd pick Foreman to KO Liston. They both got Heavy hands but I can't see Liston taking Foremans punches. I see Foreman in his prime being the quicker of the 2 as well. I'd hate to say it, but Liston is indeed overated to the max on this forum. He would do well against brawlers not named Foreman but anyone with skill in my books beats him. Who did Liston really beat?

Liston cleaned out one of the deeper eras in the divisions history. I don't know what you mean by who did the man fight.

[them_apples]

Ali had to face the heat and exhaustion too. he was the older man and had been through more wars so wouldn't foreman be at the advantage ?
Yeah, the heat had something to do with it, but so did Ali's rope a dope and his countering. and foreman fought like an idiot. A prime Liston would do way better against that Ali then foreman did for sure

Well, Foreman really didn't take so many punches before Ali, and he certainly wasn't the technician Liston was. In his early career Liston definitely faced harder opposition then foreman. Norton and Frazier had been through wars with Ali and clearly weren't the same. Chuvalo was a pretty good fighter but pretty one demensional and predictable. Not that good of a win. He did beat peretela, who was a good boxer. anyone else was a bum PRE-ALI. I think he was matched up with bad opposition to get the title shot

Liston fought Cleveland Williams, a fast slugger with knockout power, and certainly Williams was in his prime. He also beat Eddie machen, who was a very good mover with boxing skill. and there's the Patterson wins, who was better then the Frazier foreman fought. There's dejohn, harris, whitehurst, and Marshall too.

I can't see foreman taking liston's punches, myself. Liston was more proven early on in their career foreman really didn't get hit that hard. Liston took hard punches early in his career very good. foreman we don't know about.

I'll take Liston to stop foreman early in a slugging match where foreman has his moments but Liston's technical skill and jab win the battle.

I can't believe what i just heard. So you hyped up the extremely one dimensional Williams, and blew off Norton and Frazier like they were nothing. And no WAY was Patterson better than Frazier at any point in time, plz and thank you. Patterson was barely a heavyweight and would have been stopped cold by Foreman just like Liston did to him.

[young_robbed]

I can't believe what i just heard. So you hyped up the extremely one dimensional Williams, and blew off Norton and Frazier like they were nothing. And no WAY was Patterson better than Frazier at any point in time, plz and thank you. Patterson was barely a heavyweight and would have been stopped cold by Foreman just like Liston did to him.

the management definitely did match foreman up good because those guys were already extremely faded, at least Frazier was. I would say that version of Floyd is better then the version of Frazier less faded and more relevant .

Williams in his prime wasn't one dimensional at ll. he could box and slug. norton was pretty good overall but he too was faded at that point.