Better fighter, Hagler at middleweight or Holyfield at cruiser?

[slicksouthpaw16]

[QUOTE=young_robbed;10089440] IMO Evander was no where near as quick as he was at cruiser weight when he moved up. Yes he may have had more experience, but he punched WAY harder and was about twice as quick at cruiser. When he went to heavy, the extra weight and the size of his opponents caused him to lose some of his advantages. And about Leonard/Hagler, ive watched the fight numerous times and had it 7 rounds to 5 for Leonard each time. I think Leonard banked the first 4 rounds easily (Hagler didn't help by fighting right handed) and Leonard out worked him in rounds 10, 11, and 12 straight.

[young_robbed]

IMO Evander was no where near as quick as he was at cruiser weight when he moved up. Yes he may have had more experience, but he punched WAY harder and was about twice as quick at cruiser. When he went to heavy, the extra weight and the size of his opponents caused him to lose some of his advantages. And about Leonard/Hagler, ive watched the fight numerous times and had it 7 rounds to 5 for Leonard each time. I think Leonard banked the first 4 rounds easily (Hagler didn't help by fighting right handed) and Leonard out worked him in rounds 10, 11, and 12 straight.

How did he punch harder at cruiserweight? I don't see it. He added more muscle and torque. plus more punching experience. He managed to hurt and floor big durable men like foreman, mercer, bowe, Cooper, and Tyson with his added weight and strength. i certainly dont see cruiserweight holy hurting tyson like that, especsially if he had trouble hurting qawi, a smaller and less durable man? pound for pound you can say he hit harder at cruiser but not overall. there's a reason he stopped qawi like that at heavy. he had nore power and he had qawi figured out.

I totally disagree. Leonard had huge issues with hagler. I don't buy those little flurries he does. in my opinion, the heavier more accurate punching of hagler deserves more points and rounds.

[slicksouthpaw16]

How did he punch harder at cruiserweight? I don't see it. He added more muscle and torque. plus more punching experience. He managed to hurt and floor big durable men like foreman, mercer, bowe, Cooper, and Tyson with his added weight and strength. i certainly dont see cruiserweight holy hurting tyson like that, especsially if he had trouble hurting qawi, a smaller and less durable man? pound for pound you can say he hit harder at cruiser but not overall. there's a reason he stopped qawi like that at heavy. he had nore power and he had qawi figured out.

Pound for pound is what i meant. The main reason why he punched harder was because cruiser was his natural weight class. He had more knockouts at cruiser (or higher percentage) and in addition to blowing Qawi out in the rematch, he also put a beating on Carlos De Leon (one of the all time great cruisers) and took him out as well. He was far more explosive, and the Foreman fight pretty much proved my point (as Holyifeld still had a cruiser weight frame in that fight). He hit him with like a 20 punch combo and only managed to slightly stun him. At cruiser weight against fighters closer to his natural size, that wouldn't have happened. Also, both fights with Qawi happened at cruiser weight (referring to your second to last sentence).

I totally disagree. Leonard had huge issues with hagler. I don't buy those little flurries he does. in my opinion, the heavier more accurate punching of hagler deserves more points and rounds.

The rounds that i scored for Leonard were pretty convincing rounds. The ''flurry'' argument for Hagler was a myth IMO. Leonard did good work in the early rounds as well in addition to stealing some of the rounds. Care to enlighten me on what rounds you scored for Hagler?

[slicksouthpaw16]

I meant ''early part of the rounds'' for my last paragraph.

[young_robbed]

Pound for pound is what i meant. The main reason why he punched harder was because cruiser was his natural weight class. He had more knockouts at cruiser (or higher percentage) and in addition to blowing Qawi out in the rematch, he also put a beating on Carlos De Leon (one of the all time great cruisers) and took him out as well. He was far more explosive, and the Foreman fight pretty much proved my point (as Holyifeld still had a cruiser weight frame in that fight). He hit him with like a 20 punch combo and only managed to slightly stun him. At cruiser weight against fighters closer to his natural size, that wouldn't have happened. Also, both fights with Qawi happened at cruiser weight (referring to your second to last sentence).



The rounds that i scored for Leonard were pretty convincing rounds. The ''flurry'' argument for Hagler was a myth IMO. Leonard did good work in the early rounds as well in addition to stealing some of the rounds. Care to enlighten me on what rounds you scored for Hagler?

I don't think cruiser was his natural weight either... Yes, he could have stayed there and maintain his weight, but he knew he would achieve more at heavy. Since he moved up and gained more experience and power I'd say that was his better weight. Plus, he barely fought anyone at cruiser. Besides Qawi and De Leon. I stand corrected, I thought the second Qawi fight was at heavyweight.

i don't have my scorecard handy but i do think that hagler won the fight. ill score it this weekend

[Wild Blue Yonda]

He may've achieved more as a Heavy, but there is no real doubt Cruiser was naturally Holyfield's weightclass, from a genetic & physique standpoint. He juiced & lifted his way past 200lbs.

[Steak]

He may've achieved more as a Heavy, but there is no real doubt Cruiser was naturally Holyfield's weightclass, from a genetic & physique standpoint. He juiced & lifted his way past 200lbs.

I agree.

If Holyfield would have stayed at Cruiserweight, he probably would have stayed undefeated and knocked out everyone until he was about 42.

I certainly dont see anyone of the last 20 or so years that could have taken on Holyfield at 190lbs(200lbs later)...well, ok, there was Moorer...but thats about it.

[Steak]

I don't think cruiser was his natural weight either... Yes, he could have stayed there and maintain his weight, but he knew he would achieve more at heavy. Since he moved up and gained more experience and power I'd say that was his better weight. Plus, he barely fought anyone at cruiser. Besides Qawi and De Leon. I stand corrected, I thought the second Qawi fight was at heavyweight.

i don't have my scorecard handy but i do think that hagler won the fight. ill score it this weekend

Tillman, Parkey and Occasio were all highly regarded fighters Holyfield beat as well.

DeLeon is still likely the second best Cruiserweight of all time, so Holyfield stopping him is a pretty big deal.


I also thought Hagler beat Leonard: people seem to ignore the damage he was doing to the body.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

There have been some good ones...Moorer, Hill, & co. Toney didn't really aim up at this weight --- maybe he would've with Holyfield around, but really, it is hard to dispute his being the best CW who ever drew breath.

Had Holyfield been around in the 40's, where the emphasis was on training down in weight to improve reflexes & conditioning, it's possible he might've made a career as a Light-Heavy. I definitely do not think of Holyfield as a natural HW, in any case.

[young_robbed]

Tillman, Parkey and Occasio were all highly regarded fighters Holyfield beat as well.

DeLeon is still likely the second best Cruiserweight of all time, so Holyfield stopping him is a pretty big deal.


I also thought Hagler beat Leonard: people seem to ignore the damage he was doing to the body.

Yeah it was an excellent win. I don't think I put it down, did I?
He's probably the second best cruiserweight ever, but that's only if you include LEGIT cruisers, if Louis and Marciano counted I'd pick em both over the green cruiserweight holyfield.

Ocasio was a slick boxer with no punching power, and limited strength. he did manage to beat a past it young, and qawi. he even beat Coetzer, an underated win for him. Sure, I'll give him Occasio. good win
Tilman and Parkey certainly can't be that good though

It was a close fight, for me anyway.