1943 Middleweight tournament

[GJC]

Booker was suffering badly with one of his eyes in 43' especially after he was involved in a fight earlier in which his opponent hid scissors inside his glove and cut him up pretty badly

As memory serves Booker started to get eye trouble after the draw with Moore but doctored gloves arn't Moore's style. Think the concensus is that Chase possibly had doctored gloves when he beat him.
Like you say Booker still got some great wins after even with the eye. Maybe Booker wasn't at his best in 1943 but it was difficult to draw the line in the sand re a year and I really wanted Booker in the mix.

Re Graziano being raw, probably, but I think Rocky was a hit and be hit kind of fighter and I don't think he was the type of fighter that developed with experience and what you saw was what you got.
Must say Booker v Graziano was one of the round one fights that really interested me. Booker v Zale would have also been a great match as both were devastating body punchers

[Canelo Phresh]

zale ud
zivic ud
lamotta ko
graziano ko
robinson ko
cerdan ko
burley ud

[GJC]

Really? Booker was known to have an ATG chin and no one was able to knock him out, Moore couldn't do it what makes you think Graziano could? He'd also just turned pro in 1943 but I guess also Booker was past prime and impaired vision, well I guess its not that crazy now that I think about it.

Think Moore did put Booker down a couple of times? But you are right Booker did have a great chin.
Would have to recheck but I think Graziano might have turned pro in 41 or 42?

[GJC]

Couple of votes for Zivic over Marshall there, personally I had Marshall winning that but its all about opinion. Marshall around 1943 was a serious contender to win the whole tournament imo. He beat Charles, Burley and La Motta around that era.

Remember guys it's not an ATG tournament, its a 1943 tournament.

[NChristo]

As memory serves Booker started to get eye trouble after the draw with Moore but doctored gloves arn't Moore's style. Think the concensus is that Chase possibly had doctored gloves when he beat him.
Like you say Booker still got some great wins after even with the eye. Maybe Booker wasn't at his best in 1943 but it was difficult to draw the line in the sand re a year and I really wanted Booker in the mix.

Re Graziano being raw, probably, but I think Rocky was a hit and be hit kind of fighter and I don't think he was the type of fighter that developed with experience and what you saw was what you got.
Must say Booker v Graziano was one of the round one fights that really interested me. Booker v Zale would have also been a great match as both were devastating body punchers

I wasn't complaining, I'm happy to see Booker in the mix , enjoy reading about him and he very rarely comes up in discussion.

He may have been a hit and be hit type but every boxer learns / gains something with every fight and changes regardless, Booker would have been levels ahead of everyone Graziano faced and at the time I don't think he would really know how to handle him.

[GJC]

I wasn't complaining, I'm happy to see Booker in the mix , enjoy reading about him and he very rarely comes up in discussion.

He may have been a hit and be hit type but every boxer learns / gains something with every fight and changes regardless, Booker would have been levels ahead of everyone Graziano faced and at the time I don't think he would really know how to handle him.

I agree I'd favour Booker myself.
Think the interesting thing about drawing the line in the sand in 43 is that La Motta and Cerdan would be better imo than when they did actually win the title. Archie Moore would certainly be a work in progress. Guys like Burley, Marshall and Williams would be at their peak. Also Abrams career was probably more screwed by WWII than anyones.

[GJC]

Poet kindly run the matches through his computer thingy and came up with the following which gives more food for thought. I hasten to add that this is the programmes opinion not mine or Poets. I continue to try and drag Poet into the thread as I along with a lot of others I'm sure would value his take on this.

Here is your tourney run on Title Bout. All fights schedualed for 15 rounds. All fighters presumed to be in top condition. Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles are set to pre-prime career stage, all other fighters are presumed to be prime.

Opening Round

Tony Zale vs Cocoa Kid - Zale by DQ in 12

Lloyd Marshall vs Fritzie Zivic - Marshall by Unanimous Decision

Jake La Motta vs Archie Moore - Moore by Unanimous Decision

Rocky Graziano vs Eddie Booker - Booker by TKO in 6

Ezzard Charles vs Holman Williams - Williams by TKO in 9

Marcel Cerdan vs Jack Chase - Cerdan by TKO in 6

Ray Robinson vs George Abrams - Robinson by KO in 14

Charley Burley vs Al Hostak - Hostak by Split Decision


Quarter-Finals

Tony Zale vs Lloyd Marshall - Zale by TKO in 7

Archie Moore vs Eddie Booker - Moore by KO in 11

Holman Williams vs Marcel Cerdan - Cerdan by DQ in 11

Ray Robinson vs Al Hostak - Robinson by Unanimous Decision


Semi-Finals

Tony Zale vs Ray Robinson - Robinson by Unanimous Decision

Archie Moore vs Marcel Cerdan - Moore by KO in 5


Finals

Ray Robinson vs Archie Moore - Robinson by TKO in 4

[RubenSonny]

Think Moore did put Booker down a couple of times? But you are right Booker did have a great chin.
Would have to recheck but I think Graziano might have turned pro in 41 or 42?

Yeah he did but Graziano is not the puncher of Moore, and was not better than Moore either. His name carries weight for the great wars with Zale and Ray calling him the hardest puncher he ever faced, in reality he wasn't all that good a fighter, not on the level of Booker, who still had world class wins over better opponents despite eye problems, of course theres a chance Graziano could of one but IMO Booker is harshly underrated, maybe the most underrated of the row and I'd have to heavily favor him over the rookie in this match-up.

[McGoorty]

O.K. I'll give it a go but first I gotta say, how GOOD would this Tourney be, imagine having ringside seats to this!!!!!! . 1st Rd Ft 1> ZALE W tko 4 Cocoa KID . Ft 2> ZIVIC Wsplit Dec. 15 L. MARSHALL . Ft 3> MOORE W15 U.D LaMOTTA , Ft 4> BOOKER W15 U.D GRAZIANO (to early 4 Rock) . Ft 5> H. WILLIAMS W15 CHARLES ( out on a limb?? ) . Ft 6> CERDAN W KO2 CHASE . Ft 7> ROBINSON W KO8 ABRAMS (they DID fight) . Ft 8> BURLEY W TKO13 HOSTAK (Al was tough) . QTR FIN- 1 ZALE W KO4 ZIVIC . QTR FIN- 2 MOORE W KO6 BOOKER . QTR FIN- 3 CERDAN W Rsf 14 WILLIAMS . QTR FIN- 4 ROBINSON W UD BURLEY . . SEMI- 1 MOORE W 15 ZALE SEMI- 2 ROBINSON W TKO 9 CERDAN . FINAL---- Sugar RAY Robbo W spltDEC MONGOOSE . ( it's hard to say how great Moore was in 43 but his impressive wins over the great Aboriginal RON RICHARDS in the late 30's when Ron was at his PEAK are testimony that he'd always been a prodigy, ditto RAY, question is, just how big a middleweight Archie was at that time. Incidentally, Archie was knocked down and very hurt by the first punch that Richards landed, in that 1st Rd knockdown he managed somehow to survive that 1st Rd with the usual Savage and unrelenting Richards going all out for a quick stoppage, legend has it that Richards NEVER WON ANOTHER ROUND against the then adolescent Mongoose. CHEERS to ALL REAL Boxing HISTORY fanatics.