Tunney on Sonny Liston: "Dempsey KOs him in 2 Rounds"

[TheGreatA]

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?...im+flynn&hl=en

That's an article 10 years after with nothing but speculation backing up the writer's view.

Dempsey was knocked down 10 times by middleweight Johnny Sudenberg in the first round. He was also down against Firpo only seconds into the bout. It's entirely possible that he may have been caught cold.

Fix or not though, I was only comparing it to Liston-Ali II which too has been claimed a dive by plenty of people with good reasons to back up that view.

[mickyward5656]

The only fighters in heavyweight history who I believe had a chance of beating a prime Liston are Ali and Lennox Lewis....

[Great John L]

The fact that Dempsey was Tunney's most celebrated win was purely coincidental. He's hardly going to say Liston would have flattened Dempsey. Dempsey couldn't even walk through Tommy Gibbons, Bill Brennan or Willie Meehan but he's going to KO one of the meanest, strongest heavyweights of all time in two rounds. Right.

Very different styles between Liston and the above you mentioned. If the three you listed fought Dempsey how Liston would they'd all be knocked dead quick. Meehan fights hardly mean anything. They were earlier in Jack's career, most were no decisions/draws, Dempsey even beat Meehan in one of the fights. They only went 4 rounds. If you stopped Brennan-Dempsey after 4 roudns Brennan would win. We all know Jack eventually caught up and KO'ed Brennan, as he would have done to Meehan.

Gibbons was an immensely skilled boxer and great defensive fighter. Liston would have had difficulties with him too.

Tunney hardly needs to rely on Dempsey for his reputation. His legacy was secured long before even without Dempsey. Beating Greb 4 times, KOing Carpentier, Gibbons, beating Levinsky, and only losing once with almsot every win comnig by knockout.

[louis54]

tunney is right. dempsey early. liston was just too slow. willard had faster hands than him. dempsey just coulndt help himself from nailing that sloww cat.

[BigStereotype]

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/ca...eyChampion.htm

You have to ask yourself, Do you know more than Ray Arcel".. Who seen Dempsey fight... we can only go by what guys like Arcel tell us, because to simply trash their word and claim Dempsey was rubbish and would be destroyed by Vitali Klitschko or some other alphabet belt holder is ridiculous... What would Arcel say of Klitschko?

You're putting words in my mouth...again...I never said Dempsey was "rubbish." I said probably top five heavyweight. But for every ten historians who ranks Dempsey as the GOAT, I'll show you a thousand who rank Ray Robison higher. Same with Ali. I don't think I know more than Ray Arcel, for sure, but I don't thik he's right here. I don't know more than Bert Sugar, either. Dempsey was an awesome talent, but what do you have to rank him as the GOAT? Resume? Nope. Ali and Robinson own him there. It's not even close. How about head to head matchups? Well, hard to rank somebody the GOAT when he was unable to adjust to the best fighter he ever stepped in with, isn't it?

[sonnyboyx2]

You're putting words in my mouth...again...I never said Dempsey was "rubbish." I said probably top five heavyweight. But for every ten historians who ranks Dempsey as the GOAT, I'll show you a thousand who rank Ray Robison higher. Same with Ali. I don't think I know more than Ray Arcel, for sure, but I don't thik he's right here. I don't know more than Bert Sugar, either. Dempsey was an awesome talent, but what do you have to rank him as the GOAT? Resume? Nope. Ali and Robinson own him there. It's not even close. How about head to head matchups? Well, hard to rank somebody the GOAT when he was unable to adjust to the best fighter he ever stepped in with, isn't it?

all this crap about ranking a fighter by resume is complete rubbish...if we was to do that the that fat Danish guy Brian Neilson would be an ATG going by his resume, he even broke Marciano's record of 49-0 yet we all know it is bullshyte... you rate fighters on who they beat that was in their prime and how they performed in the ring as well as how you see them H2H and on that score Jack Dempsey always comes out on top among the Heavyweights... you are throwing Ray Robinson into the mix here but we are talking Heavyweights not every weight.

[The Surgeon]

How can a fight fan not love Dempsey!? But im gonna have to disagree with Tunney who i think was just being honest when he said that but also lets remember he and Jack were pals and he beat him so saying Dempsey is better than this guy is like saying IM better than this guy! For me Sonny Liston would be the winner, i think he punched as hard but with more fundamentals, that jab would give Dempsey nightmares i feel

[BigStereotype]

all this crap about ranking a fighter by resume is complete rubbish...if we was to do that the that fat Danish guy Brian Neilson would be an ATG going by his resume, he even broke Marciano's record of 49-0 yet we all know it is bullshyte... you rate fighters on who they beat that was in their prime and how they performed in the ring as well as how you see them H2H and on that score Jack Dempsey always comes out on top among the Heavyweights... you are throwing Ray Robinson into the mix here but we are talking Heavyweights not every weight.

Who they beat in their prime = resume. And Ali still has him beat there. And when you were saying GOAT, I can understand how you would have Dempsey there. I disagree, I'd put Ali and Louis ahead of him for sure, then it gets a little murkier. But you're entitled to your opinion.

[CarlosG815]

all this crap about ranking a fighter by resume is complete rubbish...if we was to do that the that fat Danish guy Brian Neilson would be an ATG going by his resume, he even broke Marciano's record of 49-0 yet we all know it is bullshyte... you rate fighters on who they beat that was in their prime and how they performed in the ring as well as how you see them H2H and on that score Jack Dempsey always comes out on top among the Heavyweights... you are throwing Ray Robinson into the mix here but we are talking Heavyweights not every weight.

I rank fighters the same way. Even with that, Ali to me is still the greatest. He did make most of his opposition look amateur, he fought every top contender and never ducked any man, and he fought for what seems like forever at a high level.

It has to be Ali.

[JAB5239]

all this crap about ranking a fighter by resume is complete rubbish..

.if we was to do that the that fat Danish guy Brian Neilson would be an ATG going by his resume, he even broke Marciano's record of 49-0 yet we all know it is bullshyte... you rate fighters on who they beat that was in their prime and how they performed in the ring as well as how you see them H2H and on that score Jack Dempsey always comes out on top among the Heavyweights... you are throwing Ray Robinson into the mix here but we are talking Heavyweights not every weight.

I disagree Sonny. There in no other way that is as fair or complete. Not sure where the Neilson statement came from, but we all know he was never the champion, but only held a paper title by an ABC org who was hardly recognized. Going by his resume we know for a fact he wouldn't have been deserving of this honor because of what I pointed out and because his opposition during his reign never ranked in any other org or by The Ring.

Dempseys natural talent and ferocity can be seen on film, but his opponents talents (not in every case) overall aren't as impressive as Ali, Louis, Johnson, Jeffries, and Holy etc., etc., opponents talent. This is why many rank higher than him in my opinion.