Underrated Title Reigns?

[JAB5239]

I know Jeff fought very good competition, but I'm saying that he never fought a Frazier or a Foreman r a Liston. Lots of good fighters jsut not top 10. Of ocourse Lpouis didn't that much either. I wasn't saying Loui's reign was short btw. I meant that Jeff's was.

Fair enough. But you have to realize MOST greats never had the opportunity to fight a Frazier, Foreman or Liston. Can't penalize a fighter for that. Tyson, Liston, Dempsey, Holmes, Louis and others either never fought a top 10 all time fighter, or who they did fight was long past their best.

[Great John L]

Not penalizing Jeff, but I know that many people I have spoken to in the past downgrade him for supposedly not fighting anybody, and it's like you said most greats don't have a chance to fight gthat competition. He fought the best around and dominated the field to such an extent that he had to refight and beat agains several fighters. Very good ones like Corbett and Fitzsimmons. Not to mention the fact that he was never knocked down or out, or defeated in his prime. Jeff beat very good competition. How good that competition would compare to a more recent era is questionable, but as you said, several of Jeff's opponents are in the Hall of Fame.

[JAB5239]

Not penalizing Jeff, but I know that many people I have spoken to in the past downgrade him for supposedly not fighting anybody, and it's like you said most greats don't have a chance to fight gthat competition. He fought the best around and dominated the field to such an extent that he had to refight and beat agains several fighters. Very good ones like Corbett and Fitzsimmons. Not to mention the fact that he was never knocked down or out, or defeated in his prime. Jeff beat very good competition. How good that competition would compare to a more recent era is questionable, but as you said, several of Jeff's opponents are in the Hall of Fame.

I do penalize him for drawing the color line while champion. Had he fought Johnson while champ and lost, everything about him would be viewed differently. So there were some other he COULD have fought. Overall I think he has a very impressive resume for such a short career though.

[Great John L]

True. The color line was uneccessary. So was him saying that he would retire once there were no white fighters left to battle. He did fighter Peter Jackson and Armstrong, but those are about the only blacks he fought and he didn't fight any as champion if I recall.

[JAB5239]

True. The color line was uneccessary. So was him saying that he would retire once there were no white fighters left to battle. He did fighter Peter Jackson and Armstrong, but those are about the only blacks he fought and he didn't fight any as champion if I recall.

Agreed. As far as his fights with Jackson and Armstrong.......Jackson was only fighting the his second time in 6 years and was far past his best. Armstrong, at least on paper appears to be nothing more than a stepping stone. whether either of these fighters were black or white, neither of these fights were essential in the career of Jeff.

[Great John L]

What's also interesting is that even Jack Johnson drew the color line, refusing to defend agaisnt black fighters whilst champion through 1908-1915. Of course since he defeated all of the best black heavyweights and won the "Colored Heavyweight Championship" Prior to becoming the World Champion, this can be excused. Johnson said he wanted to retire "as the only colroed heavyweight champion." He turned a deaf ear to the challenges of Joe Jeanette and the Great Sam Langford when he was champion. It was easier to defeat the less qualified white fighters like Tony Ross, Al Kaufman, Frank Moran, and Jim Flynn, and of course a faded Jim Jeffries.

[JAB5239]

What's also interesting is that even Jack Johnson drew the color line, refusing to defend agaisnt black fighters whilst champion through 1908-1915. Of course since he defeated all of the best black heavyweights and won the "Colored Heavyweight Championship" Prior to becoming the World Champion, this can be excused. Johnson said he wanted to retire "as the only colroed heavyweight champion." He turned a deaf ear to the challenges of Joe Jeanette and the Great Sam Langford when he was champion. It was easier to defeat the less qualified white fighters like Tony Ross, Al Kaufman, Frank Moran, and Jim Flynn, and of course a faded Jim Jeffries.

As a boxing fan I don't excuse either fighter from drawing a line in which the best fighters are not allowed to fight for your title. I do think there were two different reasons for this same decision though. Johnson was greedy and selfish and truly wanted to be the first and last black heavyweight champion. Jeffries reasons I believe to be a bit more dubious as he was willing to fight Johnson in a back room but not give him his well earned chance at the most coveted prize in sports. Jmo.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

As a boxing fan I don't excuse either fighter from drawing a line in which the best fighters are not allowed to fight for your title. I do think there were two different reasons for this same decision though. Johnson was greedy and selfish and truly wanted to be the first and last black heavyweight champion. Jeffries reasons I believe to be a bit more dubious as he was willing to fight Johnson in a back room but not give him his well earned chance at the most coveted prize in sports. Jmo.

I'm sure it's known to you already, but that's rather easily said today...back then, it was the norm, & completely expected, as well as accepted.

I feel it's a touch tough to penalise him in retrospect, but that's my take.

[JAB5239]

I'm sure it's known to you already, but that's rather easily said today...back then, it was the norm, & completely expected, as well as accepted.

I feel it's a touch tough to penalise him in retrospect, but that's my take.

I know and I understand. Im not penalizing Jeffries, but Im certainly not going to reward him by saying he had no one else to fight. He COULD of fought other fighters. He chose not to not because they weren't worthy, but because of an ignorant, racist and elitist point of view. I respect jeffries the fighter and what he accomplished. I cannot however respect anyone as a man who is as ignorant as to say (before the Johnson fight) "The only reason I am coming back is to prove the white man is better than a black".