After Pacquiao's victory against Margarito Where do you rank him on the ATG List?

[CarlosG815]

interesting link....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMTveGUw4vI

A couple more...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3Ot7yP_nRM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIkzjKk3pOo

[HaglerSteelChin]

top 5, who the **** has done as much as him? you could say no.1 but im not going for for respect to the old greats.


but his resume is ****ing stacked. Top notch fighters and the fact that he dominates almost all of them, and keeps moving up. Beating up a guy almost 20 lbs heavier than him.

The only small argument is that he's only fought 2 fighters that were legit prime (barrera (arguable) and Marquez. Others were close prime or had been beat before.

Hardly anyone has a lot of prime fighters on thier list though, Ali does however.

If Pac beats May his resume has to be the best of all time in terms of quality. He basically wiped out one of the best featherweight/sfw divisions ever and that was only the beginning.

Briefly-BTW- This is only the first half of the response, i will compare him to the modern greats in the second half. LOL

I do think Pacquiao has earned his spot among the greats of the sport. The fact is his career is not over yet, and we still don't know what will happen next? Imagine he fights Mayweater next year and has his ears boxed off in a 12 round UD loss? Many observers felt that he already was outboxed twice by Juan Manuel Marquez in their previous matches. Being someone who has no Mexican or Fillipino association, will say that i had Marquez squeezing out both fights. Even if you score the first round 10-6 for Pacquiao due to the three knockdowns, i had Marquez winning 8 of the last 11 rounds. Do the math, that means i had it 113-112 for Marquez. Some think it is impossible for a fighter to win after getting knockdown three times. Here are some examples to show that is not the case Klitschko-Peter, Peter-McCline, and Benitez-Curry. If there are three knockdowns in one round, you have 11 other rounds to make up for those 4 points. If you have been knockdown twice in two different rounds, than you have 10 rounds to make up for a 4 point loss. The fact is that getting knockdown twice in two different rounds is more of an obstacle to overcome than being knockdown three times in one round witht he modern 10 point system.

Than you have the infamous Nedal Hussein fight. A fight that many felt Pacquiao was saved by a long count in Round 4. Referee Carlos Padilla a fellow pinoy, had allowed more than seconds to elapsed before resuming action. Pacquiao was out in his feet, Hussein came in to stop him, but Pacquiao held on, and Padilla fell to break them, than he gave Pacquiao more recovery time by taking a point deduction for throwing an elbow to get Pacquiao off him. This is not exactly a Sugar Ray Robinson performance, for someone that people are now claiming is the greatest fighter of all time.


Sugar Ray Robinson in 200 professional fights never was knocked out in the classical sense. His only stoppage loss was to Joey Maxim in a Light Heavweight title bout that many felt he was winning, but quit due to heat exhaustation, the fact that he climbed many stairs instead of using an elevator on fight day, may have contributed to this. After 100 profesional fights, Sugar Ray Robinson deafeated every opponent he ever faced, his only loss to Jake Lamotta would be avenged 4 times

That is a record that only Carlos Monzon and Marcel Cedan can claim after 100 fights. After 131 fights Robinson was 128-1-2 a record that rivals the great Willie Pep after that quanitiy of fights. Robinson also defeated 10 boxers that went to the International Hall of fame as Armstrong, Lamotta, Fullmer, Gavilan, Basilio, Graziano, Zivic, Turpin, Angott, and Olson. There is nobody that Pacquiao defeated as good as Kid Gavilan, let alone Henry Armstrong. It is important to remember there were only 8 divisions with one true lineal champion in the era that Robinson fought. There are currently 17 weight divisions with four major sanctioning bodies, which means there can possibly be as many as 68 current boxing champions opposed to 8. Many don't even know that fighter Hector "Macho" Camacho has won titles in 7 different divisions, if you include minor titles. Robinson had great speed, chin, stamina, and impacted the sport possibly greater than any fighter the last half century. His only weakness was that he did get hit a lot but his chin and durability mitigated that.

We can't take away from Pacquaio's great acheivement in capturing an 8th title but we do need to put them in proper context. His victory against Marco Antonio Barrera was for a Ring title, and it didn't include any of the four major sanctioning bodies (WBC, WBA, IBF, and WBO). This can be also said against his victory at Junior Welterweight against Ricky Hatton which was for both the IBO and Ring belt. His wins against Cotto and Margarito were both in cathweights for the WBO Welterweight title and WBC Junior Middleweight title. I will not be too critical in the Margarito fight, as Margarito came in at 165 pounds in fight night.
Henry Armstrong nearly won a 4th title against Ceferino Garcia coming in as a welterweight for the middleweight title. The fight was scored a draw, although many felt Armstrong won , i will say that Garcia did enough in my eyes in the final rounds to keep his title. However, it is important to remember that Armstrong held the Featherweight, Lightweight, and Welterweight title at once. Morevoer, Armstrong defeated 10 hall of famers Wolgast, Ross, Angott, Ambers, Jenkins, Zivic, Montanez, Bass, Wright, and Arizmendy. Pacquiao has possibly defeated half that amount of hall of famers. The four obvious choices are De La Hoya, Barrera, Morales, and the quesitonable win against Marquez. Two fighters that may get consideration are Ricky Hatton and Oscar Larios, but both will likely be on the bubble. It is too early to say if Miguel Cotto can get several key wins to make a case for the IBHOF.

Are we going to put Pacquiao higher than Willie Pep argubaly the greatest defensive fighter of all time? A fighter who at one point was 134-1-1 . Pep helped innovate defensive boxing as fighters Daniel Mendoza(bare knuckle), James Corbett, and Gene Tunney did before him, and guys like Niccolino Locche, Wilfred Benitez, Pernell Whitaker, an even Floyd Mayweather Jr. would do years later.

Is Pacquiao greater than a guy like Harry Greb? A man who defeated 13 future boxing hall of famers Kid Norfolk, Tunney, Levinsky, T.Gibbons,M. Gibbobs, Dillon, Flowers, Rosenbloom, Slattery, Walker, Loughran, Blackburn, and Billy miske? Even as middleweight it was well reported that he easily had his way with the natural heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey. We all know that Dempsey never took it easy on spariing. Here is another tidbit the figher known as Harry Greb also fought blind in an eye for a portion of his carrer.

The same can be said of the great Sam Langford who also fought blind in one eye a portion of his career. A fighter due to the color barrier was not given a title shot, even Dempsey would say " I won't fight Langford he would flatten me." Langford would start out as a welteweight at 5 feet 7 and even later on defeat natural heavyweights. The 11 Hall of famers he defeated includeGeorge Godfrey,Tiger Flowers,Harry Wills,Joe Jeannette,Sam McVey,Philadelphia Jack O'Brian,Dixie Kid,Joe Gans,Jack Blackburn,Kid Norfolk,Stanley Ketchel (newspaper decision). Langford was only a half inch taller than Pacquiao and he fought natural heavweights. If there was no color barrier, he might have been champion in 4 divisions in an era that had only 8 champions.

I am not taking nothing away from Pac have him top 15, btw beating guys with bigger weight, David Haye beat a guy who had 100 pounds more than him, going back to the days of Bob Fitzsimmons a MW who beat HW, small guys have beaten bigger guys for a century.

Part 2 to follow Pac vs modern guys as SRL, ALi etc.

[d0n]

If he beats Mayweather, a possible Top 5.

[lfc19titles]

Top 10 ATG, has defeated some solid future hall of fame boxers, has easily been a proper 8 weight world champ

why 8? cotto is a solid 154 champ, manny brutalised him, margo is a solid welter as is cotto as well

[T.Horton]

At this point I am guessing about 20 myself but I am going to spend the next few nights trying to create my own list.

[Kid McCoy]

Though I think Pac is a brilliant fighter and the best of his era, I feel he's being overranked by some. To me Cotto, Clottey, Hatton, Margarito, Marquez (maybe), Barrera and Morales is not the resume of a top 5 or top 10 fighter of all time. There are many who still surpass him besides the obvious in Greb, Robinson etc.

And a word on Pac winning titles in about 50 divisions. It’s an achievement helped considerably by the abundance of belts and divisions these days (up to five champions per division to choose from and all those super and junior titles), and the different weigh in rules which skew the picture.

Pac’s ring weight has been in the 140s since at least his super feather days. In effect, he’s been fighting within the welterweight limit for five years, but modern rules allow him to squeeze into smaller divisions, with up to two days to rehydrate to his preferred weight (I suspect extreme weight-cutting in his early days may have contributed to those early KO losses).

I wonder if he could have fought in all those divisions if he had to weigh, say, 130 on the day of the fight like Armstrong and co did and not 24-48 hours before? I doubt it. Would he have won so many belts if he had to beat the champion and not just a champion? Who knows? Something to think about while he’s being promoted as the first 8 division champ in history.

[bklynboy]

I love Pacquiao but I don't think it's clear that he's the best fighter over the last 30 years, let alone of All-Time. I give a lot of credit for moving up in weight, especially when you're over 25. If you start as a teen-ager obviously you're going to move up in weight. At best I have him in the TOP 20; probably TOP 25.

Pac is not "obviously" better than Duran, SRL or RJJ.

[Barn]

At the tail end of the 50's personally.
It's who you beat not the piece of ***ellery you are wearing.

[them_apples]

Briefly-BTW- This is only the first half of the response, i will compare him to the modern greats in the second half. LOL

I do think Pacquiao has earned his spot among the greats of the sport. The fact is his career is not over yet, and we still don't know what will happen next? Imagine he fights Mayweater next year and has his ears boxed off in a 12 round UD loss? Many observers felt that he already was outboxed twice by Juan Manuel Marquez in their previous matches. Being someone who has no Mexican or Fillipino association, will say that i had Marquez squeezing out both fights. Even if you score the first round 10-6 for Pacquiao due to the three knockdowns, i had Marquez winning 8 of the last 11 rounds. Do the math, that means i had it 113-112 for Marquez. Some think it is impossible for a fighter to win after getting knockdown three times. Here are some examples to show that is not the case Klitschko-Peter, Peter-McCline, and Benitez-Curry. If there are three knockdowns in one round, you have 11 other rounds to make up for those 4 points. If you have been knockdown twice in two different rounds, than you have 10 rounds to make up for a 4 point loss. The fact is that getting knockdown twice in two different rounds is more of an obstacle to overcome than being knockdown three times in one round witht he modern 10 point system.

Than you have the infamous Nedal Hussein fight. A fight that many felt Pacquiao was saved by a long count in Round 4. Referee Carlos Padilla a fellow pinoy, had allowed more than seconds to elapsed before resuming action. Pacquiao was out in his feet, Hussein came in to stop him, but Pacquiao held on, and Padilla fell to break them, than he gave Pacquiao more recovery time by taking a point deduction for throwing an elbow to get Pacquiao off him. This is not exactly a Sugar Ray Robinson performance, for someone that people are now claiming is the greatest fighter of all time.


Sugar Ray Robinson in 200 professional fights never was knocked out in the classical sense. His only stoppage loss was to Joey Maxim in a Light Heavweight title bout that many felt he was winning, but quit due to heat exhaustation, the fact that he climbed many stairs instead of using an elevator on fight day, may have contributed to this. After 100 profesional fights, Sugar Ray Robinson deafeated every opponent he ever faced, his only loss to Jake Lamotta would be avenged 4 times

That is a record that only Carlos Monzon and Marcel Cedan can claim after 100 fights. After 131 fights Robinson was 128-1-2 a record that rivals the great Willie Pep after that quanitiy of fights. Robinson also defeated 10 boxers that went to the International Hall of fame as Armstrong, Lamotta, Fullmer, Gavilan, Basilio, Graziano, Zivic, Turpin, Angott, and Olson. There is nobody that Pacquiao defeated as good as Kid Gavilan, let alone Henry Armstrong. It is important to remember there were only 8 divisions with one true lineal champion in the era that Robinson fought. There are currently 17 weight divisions with four major sanctioning bodies, which means there can possibly be as many as 68 current boxing champions opposed to 8. Many don't even know that fighter Hector "Macho" Camacho has won titles in 7 different divisions, if you include minor titles. Robinson had great speed, chin, stamina, and impacted the sport possibly greater than any fighter the last half century. His only weakness was that he did get hit a lot but his chin and durability mitigated that.

We can't take away from Pacquaio's great acheivement in capturing an 8th title but we do need to put them in proper context. His victory against Marco Antonio Barrera was for a Ring title, and it didn't include any of the four major sanctioning bodies (WBC, WBA, IBF, and WBO). This can be also said against his victory at Junior Welterweight against Ricky Hatton which was for both the IBO and Ring belt. His wins against Cotto and Margarito were both in cathweights for the WBO Welterweight title and WBC Junior Middleweight title. I will not be too critical in the Margarito fight, as Margarito came in at 165 pounds in fight night.
Henry Armstrong nearly won a 4th title against Ceferino Garcia coming in as a welterweight for the middleweight title. The fight was scored a draw, although many felt Armstrong won , i will say that Garcia did enough in my eyes in the final rounds to keep his title. However, it is important to remember that Armstrong held the Featherweight, Lightweight, and Welterweight title at once. Morevoer, Armstrong defeated 10 hall of famers Wolgast, Ross, Angott, Ambers, Jenkins, Zivic, Montanez, Bass, Wright, and Arizmendy. Pacquiao has possibly defeated half that amount of hall of famers. The four obvious choices are De La Hoya, Barrera, Morales, and the quesitonable win against Marquez. Two fighters that may get consideration are Ricky Hatton and Oscar Larios, but both will likely be on the bubble. It is too early to say if Miguel Cotto can get several key wins to make a case for the IBHOF.

Are we going to put Pacquiao higher than Willie Pep argubaly the greatest defensive fighter of all time? A fighter who at one point was 134-1-1 . Pep helped innovate defensive boxing as fighters Daniel Mendoza(bare knuckle), James Corbett, and Gene Tunney did before him, and guys like Niccolino Locche, Wilfred Benitez, Pernell Whitaker, an even Floyd Mayweather Jr. would do years later.

Is Pacquiao greater than a guy like Harry Greb? A man who defeated 13 future boxing hall of famers Kid Norfolk, Tunney, Levinsky, T.Gibbons,M. Gibbobs, Dillon, Flowers, Rosenbloom, Slattery, Walker, Loughran, Blackburn, and Billy miske? Even as middleweight it was well reported that he easily had his way with the natural heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey. We all know that Dempsey never took it easy on spariing. Here is another tidbit the figher known as Harry Greb also fought blind in an eye for a portion of his carrer.

The same can be said of the great Sam Langford who also fought blind in one eye a portion of his career. A fighter due to the color barrier was not given a title shot, even Dempsey would say " I won't fight Langford he would flatten me." Langford would start out as a welteweight at 5 feet 7 and even later on defeat natural heavyweights. The 11 Hall of famers he defeated includeGeorge Godfrey,Tiger Flowers,Harry Wills,Joe Jeannette,Sam McVey,Philadelphia Jack O'Brian,Dixie Kid,Joe Gans,Jack Blackburn,Kid Norfolk,Stanley Ketchel (newspaper decision). Langford was only a half inch taller than Pacquiao and he fought natural heavweights. If there was no color barrier, he might have been champion in 4 divisions in an era that had only 8 champions.

I am not taking nothing away from Pac have him top 15, btw beating guys with bigger weight, David Haye beat a guy who had 100 pounds more than him, going back to the days of Bob Fitzsimmons a MW who beat HW, small guys have beaten bigger guys for a century.

Part 2 to follow Pac vs modern guys as SRL, ALi etc.

HE was a starved boy when he lost those early fights.


Also, boxing has changed, you can't just get a shot at the title for kicks. It's a very leveled system now. Just because some fighters went 500-0 means nothing because Pacquiao could do that as well if he was fed nobodies. The only ones that should matter are the above average fighters faced.

[Heavy Bag]

Though I think Pac is a brilliant fighter and the best of his era, I feel he's being overranked by some. To me Cotto, Clottey, Hatton, Margarito, Marquez (maybe), Barrera and Morales is not the resume of a top 5 or top 10 fighter of all time. There are many who still surpass him besides the obvious in Greb, Robinson etc.

And a word on Pac winning titles in about 50 divisions. It’s an achievement helped considerably by the abundance of belts and divisions these days (up to five champions per division to choose from and all those super and junior titles), and the different weigh in rules which skew the picture.

Pac’s ring weight has been in the 140s since at least his super feather days. In effect, he’s been fighting within the welterweight limit for five years, but modern rules allow him to squeeze into smaller divisions, with up to two days to rehydrate to his preferred weight (I suspect extreme weight-cutting in his early days may have contributed to those early KO losses).

I wonder if he could have fought in all those divisions if he had to weigh, say, 130 on the day of the fight like Armstrong and co did and not 24-48 hours before? I doubt it. Would he have won so many belts if he had to beat the champion and not just a champion? Who knows? Something to think about while he’s being promoted as the first 8 division champ in history.

Sums it up really....