After Pacquiao's streak - have any of your P4P lists changed?

[StarshipTrooper]

great post, and i tend to agree with most of what you said. I do believe pacs last few opponents have been rather questionable, but before he beat all of these guys nobody was talking about them being shot, but maybe margarito? manny makes really good fighters just look ******... i think also that his tough fights with morales (especially the 1st one) was a result of him being a one handed fighter.. this i am talking about the first morales fight that he lost.. then freddie got ahold of him and taught him to be a two fisted fighter... plus, i believe the weight manny is at now is where he feels the best.. he is much stronger at junior welterweight to welterweight and takes the power and his power to an even greater extreme as he has moved up in these weights.. he has carried the power up well.. anyways, thats just my 2 cents.. i would like him to fight better comp though, i wont lie about that.. nobody has ever made margo look that bad though.. mosley did, but do you really think margaritos mind was on that fight that night? i seriously doubt it, his mind was elsewhere and it shpwed... not saying he woulda beat shane, but that was more of it just being shanes night and the circumstances that led up to that fight.. again, just my opinion

The problem with Mosley is that he isn't the Mosley of 10 years ago: THAT Mosley I'd favor over Pacquiao. The Mosley of today is just a washed-up former great and anybody who thinks he's going to suddenly morph into the Sugar Shane of 2000 is kidding themselves. He looked horrible against BOTH Mayweather and Mora. The Margarito fight was nearly TWO years ago: An eternity in boxing. Even then the victory over Margarito, while satisfying from a fan perspective, was over a psychologically wrecked opponant who had just been busted for cheating.

Poet

[BennyST]

I was thinking about making a thread along those lines as well.


I found the Marg win hugely impressive. Not so much as it being a win, as hat was expected of a 3-1 fav., but rather the way in which he did it. Not losing a round and landing those power punches right between the guard seemingly at will left a lasting impression on me.

Now Pac should get huge credit for moving up in weight and beating bigger men along the way. What is still lacking though is him beating another bona-fide ATG. So him beating Floyd will take him a long way towards the top 10 all-time. I reckon that if he called it a day now he should be in the top 20.

I agree with this. Sitting just inside the top twenty, with I think only a Floyd win putting him higher.

What he has achieved weight wise is amazing and is the reason I have him so high, but I just see too many guys who would beat him in the divisions he has won titles in with his flaws to rank him in the top ten....or even five as some have him....I seriously can't see that. His accomplishments, and resume as it stands, get him in the top 20 but he is just missing that one great win to get him up where he could make it with the rest of his achievements.

Amazing fighter and a true modern great, but I just don't think what he has done is worthy of the praise some give him...or the place some give him being more to the point.

I mean, top 3 P4P? Really.....After beating Margarito? Great win, and the fashion he did it was spectacular....but how does beating Margarito shoot someone toward a spot as the GOAT? Despite the size difference, what's great about the win?*

Oscar
Hatton
Cotto
Clottey
Margarito

Before these guys, he was considered an excellent fighter and one of the best in the world today. He's been on the P4P lists for the last six years now. He broke into the top ten around the end of 2003/start of 2004 and then moved up to around 5th for a few years, then he sat in 2nd spot behind Mayweather after the Morales wins. When Floyd 'retired' he defaulted to the number one spot. So, he's been number now for about two years and in that time, from start of 2009 to now, he has beaten the above.

How the hell does that vault him to either GOAT, top three, top five or even top ten? No one was even talking about him as an ATG before he fought Oscar. He was an excellent fighter who had jumped into the top ranks of today's P4P elite and now, after beating five fighters who had all lost fights badly (apart from Clottey) in their last few fights or were literally having their last fight ever, he's gone to a top ten/five ATG?

I can see what attracts people to him. Nice guy, exciting, brilliant fighter with an excellent resume...but he is not a top ten ATG. Beating bigger men is great, but beating bigger men he's meant to beat and is a favourite over (because they had all been shown to have serious flaws to them in bad losses and were tailor made to be beaten) just doesn't cut becoming a top ten/five ATG.

He would at least have to beat the only fighter today to be considered a great and a fighter of excellent capabilities with few flaws. For me, he has too many flaws himself and has been shown to struggle with a few too many things for me to rate him that high. If I couldn't see him being beaten by lots of fighters in the divisions he has been in, then I could understand it....I think his flaws actually endear him to more people (because he has shown struggle and vulnerability and it makes an exciting fight) and popularity gets you rated higher whether or not you are deserving of it.

[BennyST]

When did Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong ever fight 2 bums a year? 2010 was a complete sham and robbery of boxing fans for Manny Pacquiao. Those were legitimate top contenders at their peak when Manny fought them? There weren't better fighters out there to fight?

He cannot possibly be in the same conversation as those guys. If Manny fought 10 times a year like Ray Robinson, I could care less if he fought Margarito twice that year. But the fact is, he fights twice a year, and he fights BUMS.

They were good fights against decent fighters. I think it's fine what he is doing and the guys he's fighting, but to then go and start talking about him in the same sentence as the GOAT and top ten fighters because of it, well, that gets a little ridiculous.

The guys he is fighting are good fighters of today. They are not excellent champs of their divisions historically nor are they P4P material of today nor will they ever be considered as great champs in general historically.

They are good fights, and they were good, solid fighters but that's it. They were highly flawed, often at the end of their career and coming off bad losses that showed those flaws very clearly.

The way I see it, and the Marg fight and win exemplifies this, is that win gave Pac an eighth title in an eighth division and even though people said they will never regard it as such, everyone already is. Pac is an eight time world champ in eighth divisions. How he wins them and over who is irrelevant now because it's been done and will go down historically as such.

I still see things like this: Not that long ago, that win would have put Pacquiao into a ranked position in a new division, and then at some point he would have fought a titlist. Meaning he would have had to fight someone who held a title by winning it, usually meaning he had won most of his recent fights. Instead he gets a new record beating someone never ranked, never having held a title in the division and never having beaten a champion or top contender even. That same fighter had just off the most dominating, shocking loss of his career by KO, a long layoff due to suspension and at the end of his career.

It typifies boxing today.

[PEBBLES!]

Before the Oscar fight, I doubt many had him inside their Top 30-50 fighters. Prior to Oscar, Pacquiao defeated David Diaz and Juan Manuel Marquez. David Diaz is, imo, one of the worst LW champions of all-time and Juan Manuel Marquez was straight duped.

Let's break-down his last 5 fights, which has somehow catapulted Pacquiao to ATG, Legendary, P4P Top 3, All-Time-Great status.

Oscar De La Hoya: Fighting at 147 for the first time in 7 years. He was a drained fighter and the absolute definition of an over-the-hill, shot fighter. Nevertheless, this goes down as a win over a future HOF on Pac's resume.

Ricky Hatton: A decent victory for Pacquiao. Fighting for the Ring 140 pound title. Many insiders believe Bradley was the best in the division when Pac fought Hatton. Coming off a devastating loss to Floyd Mayweather, he put in a decent showing vs Malignaggi.

Miguel Cotto: Despite fighting De La Hoya at the full Welterweight limit, Pacquiao decides to place a weight-limit on this fight for Cotto's 147 strap. Cotto, imo, is an overrated fighter but no doubt he will enter the HOF. He won 2 vacant titles and was never the best at 140 or 147. Folds under pressure and simply not that great.

Joshua Clottey: Average fighter that does absolutely nothing to Pac's ranking on an ATG list.

Antonio Margarito: Past-prime fighter. Suspended for attempting to cheat. Looked terrible in his 2 previous fights and his fight with Garcia proved he was not the same fighter who defeated Cotto. Pac receives credit for Tony being 17 pounds heavier than him. Add a cheap WBC 154 title belt from a corrupt organisation to put the cherry on top of a farce.

Diaz was not the best at 135.

Hatton was not the best at 140.

Cotto, De La Hoya & Clottey were not the best at 147.

Do I need to say anything about 154?


I believe many fans are acting on emotion and are simply caught up in the hype of the moment.


Top 3? You're having a laugh, son.

[bojangles1987]

So you are saying that Marquez priced him out and that's why the rematch took 3 years to take place?

And if you really watch the fight and do not listen to Jim Lampley get over excited over nothing, you will notice that Marquez landed more shots, cleaner shots, harder shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0urCjYl51jc

If you take the time to watch this video it will confirm what most people already knew. Not to mention that everybody in the world and at ringside (the huge majority, and ever Filipino media outlet) scored the fight for Marquez. Maybe you saw the same things as the very few who scored it for Pacquiao? Do you know how to score a fight?

I'm not trying to be a **** but I am outraged. I was outraged when he fought Clottey, and I'm even more outraged that he fought Margarito. It's shameful, disgraceful, is a slap to the face and shouldn't even be going on.

Fight a world class contender or hang them up. Fight somebody good. Fight a live opponent and stop blowing out SHOT bums. Nobody wants to see guys who do not come to fight, ala Clottey and Margarito.

Don't pull that "watch the fight again you can't score a fight" crap with me. I've watched Pac-Marquez 2 numerous times, it's one of my 5 or so favorite fights to watch. I don't listen to commentary when watching fights, I just tune it out. From round to round who landed the good shots and controlled the action changed, and it was an extremely close fight. You act like all those press members that scored it for Marquez had him winning by 4 or 5 points. Many of them only had it a 1 or 2 point fight, and if you don't think it's possible to score a round or two the other way for Manny then you are being biased and refusing to give Pacquiao any credit.

[BennyST]

you have said it all here and i totally agree... i have film footage of Ray Robinson in his prime against Bernard Decusen all 15rds as well as Henry Armstrong vs Roderick, Ross, Arizmendi and a few others and in all honesty Pacquiao is up there with them if not better.. Roach has improved him out of all proportion and i would not be surprised if he went all the way to Super Middleweight and made it 10 titles in as many divisions before he calls it a day.. such are his skills that he would be a heavy betting favorite against the 160 & 166lb champions as it is skill, speed and boxing ability not height & weight which win fights and i see no fighter in those two divisions able to beat him

Sorry? You don't see anyone capable of beating him at 160 and 168?

[bojangles1987]

Well where were these precise combos when he was fighting a semi live opponent in Erik Morales, and when he fought Marquez? It wasn't there. He couldn't land cleanly on Marquez and when he tried to throw combo's he often looked silly, off balanced, and was almost knocked down himself. He was totally outboxed and it was nothing that we've seen as of late, in how he dominated these shot opponents.

You forget one thing. A boxer with speed has no trouble landing an uppercut on Pacquiao. Pacquiao moves around a lot and when he gets hit, he goes off balance and lands in awkward positions. A good fighter can beat him and beat him fairly easily. The reason he is able to throw so many punches is because he's fighting guys who can't defend and do not have the speed to catch him.

His stamina is incredible, I will give him that. And I'm not saying he's a bad fighter, I'm just saying HOW GREAT CAN WE REALLY SAY HE IS WHEN HE IS FIGHTING SHOT FIGHTERS?

Now you claim "He has developed?" As if he has honed those skills? How so? By fighting Margarito? Even Cotto gave him trouble for a handful of rounds, and he eats left hands for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I'm not saying he can't beat the guys that are out there, I'm just pissed off that he won't fight them, but instead wastes camps on guys like Clottey and Margarito.

Everybody who knows boxing knew how this fight would go down.

This is an old thread, and it looks to me like I hit the nail right on the head, did it not?

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8781936#post8781936

I said from the beginning, as soon as it was announced - Don't buy the hype. Marg's is a shot opponent. He is not live and is not coming to fight. He will lose every round.

He was using that speed and those combos to mount a comeback the second half of the fight against Morales, in case you stopped paying attention. He was using that speed and precise combos to beat Marquez in the rematch, despite you acting like Marquez easily banked 8 rounds. All it takes is eyesight to see that Pac is no where near as predictable as he used to be and much more diverse throwing combinations.

He became a big name fighting great fighters, you know, Barrera, Marquez, Morales? Ring a bell? No one was saying Hatton, Cotto, or Clottey was shot going into those fights, because they weren't. The Cotto fight was as impressive a display as any fighter has given this decade. Cotto didn't give him any serious trouble, Pac broke him down and dominated. 3 rounds of competitiveness doesn't equal trouble. If good fighters can beat him so easily, then why don't they? Marquez is a GREAT fighter, and the rematch was sure as hell not easy.

I agree about Margarito. My opinion on Pac did not change based on the Margarito fight, and I expected exactly what happened. But it was still impressive. The fact that we expected Pac to do that is a good indication of how good he really is.

[BennyST]

I never gave even brought up Floyd, as he has no frame of reference here. This is not NSB, so why pretend that it is?

You believe Mosley is so shot? I disagree with you. And if Manny doesn't get "crap" for fighting Margarito and Clottey, but instead gets called

Man, Mosley is shot to pieces. He basically lost against the Snake guy. Got owned and nearly knocked out against Money Mai. He was so exhausted he nearly got knocked out. This is the guy that took it from Forrest, Oscar, Wright, etc etc, and yet Mayweather nearly knocked him out because he was so tired.

He's done. Shot to ****. He wouldn't beat Pac now. A few years ago yeah, now though, he'd struggle to beat anyone who can move as a **** Contender show guy showed.

[NChristo]

My eyes are actually bleeding.

[EMACULATE]

I would totally agree and im a Floyd fan, but for the life of me I cant figure out why Pac wouldnt fight Mosley after he just beat Margarito. Instead he chose to fight clottey after him and floyd could agree to terms. Please dont bging up Berto because before berto he asked Freddie and Pac and neither wanted anything to do with Mosley saying he was too good. I dont understand that Logic. If that isnt a duck then what is it. Sure anyone would want the payday of fighting Floyd but Shane was the net best Welterweight.
I also for the life of me that why hasnt the talented 140 pound fighters thats undefeated havent gotten a shot. It baffles me that he fought Diaz and Hatton and clearly avoided the dangerous tim bradley and Devon Aleander and Vic Ortiz was a formadable challenge though not very marketable they have a bigger and better name that Clottey and atleast they will fight back. So when will Pac man up and take a real challenge. Money needs to be made but please stop weight draining fighters and fight someone in your real weight class. 140 pounds they deserve a shot and I think he will win those fights pretty easily IMO.