Ranking Floyd Patterson Above Lennox Lewis, Can It Be Justified?

[Scott9945]

It is not a case of `Do i believe Ruiz could beat Lewis`.. it is more a case of did Lewis believe he could beat Ruiz... and i don't need to give Lewis a call to find the answer to that question.

What? So do you think Lewis would have lost to Ruiz, or are you just talking in riddles?

[BennyST]

This has to be one of the funniest threads I've read in a while. Getting pretty close to LarryX's boat buyer thread.

Or was that Horus'? One of them tools anyway. Similar traits in this thread.

[sonnyboyx2]

What? So do you think Lewis would have lost to Ruiz, or are you just talking in riddles?

Not talking in riddles just common sense here.. we won't ever know if Lewis would have beaten or lost to John Ruiz the WBA No1 contender because Lewis never gave us the opportunity to see that fight. Lewis had the opportunity to fight Ruiz after he fought Michael Grant but instead he fought Frans Botha on the date laid-out for the Ruiz fight.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4529125.html

[Kid McCoy]

Because at least four of his six successful title defences were against opponents who were not "viable contenders". ?
Tommy"Hurricane"Jackson & Ingemar Johansson was both No1 contenders, Roy Harris was No4 contender

Harris was another soft touch defence, and not more deserving than Machen or Folley. These fights were derided at the time. You said Floyd's title defences mae him better than Lewis. Well of six successful defences, four were against fighters you'd trash Lewis for meeting and the two best opponents he defended against KO'd him. Johansson was not #1 when they had their third fight.

was Mike Tyson, Frank Bruno, Frans Botha, Hasim Rahman, Michael Grant, Andrew Golota, Tommy Morrison & Vitali Klitschko No1 contenders for Lennox Lewis

Klitschko was #1 contender as it happens. Grant was higher ranked than Ruiz by everyone except the WBA and that was the fight to be made. Despite what you keep saying, Ruiz-Holyfield for the vacant WBA belt was already in motion when Lewis signed to fight Botha. Botha was a warm up defence in between the Grant and Tua fights and got his shot based on his recent performance against Tyson. Who should he have fought instead?

Golota was as high as his career was going to get after beating up Bowe twice. Mavrovic was a mandatory and was also European champion (cuts no ice with me but it seems to with you). Rahman was ranked #4. Tyson was ranked #1, and being the richest fight in history probably had something to do with it too.

But for all that, I'm not arguing for Lewis' defences against people like Jackson, Grant, Tucker and Botha making him great like you are with Patterson. I never mentioned his defences at all, even though he made more than Patterson (even if you only count lineal defences) and against better opposition.

You claim Tony Tucker was not a junkie and a worthy challenger.. here is what Eddie Futch said of him:

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/a...f&pqatl=google

Futch can say what he likes. As Bowe's cornerman he's hardly neutral on the matter. What were Futch's views on Michael Dokes the night he fought Bowe?

And of course you think Ruiz would beat Lewis. If the question came up you'd probably argue that Brian London or Ron Stander would beat Lewis too.

[sonnyboyx2]

Harris was another soft touch defence, and not more deserving than Machen or Folley. These fights were derided at the time. You said Floyd's title defences mae him better than Lewis. Well of six successful defences, four were against fighters you'd trash Lewis for meeting and the two best opponents he defended against KO'd him. Johansson was not #1 when they had their third fight.



Klitschko was #1 contender as it happens. Grant was higher ranked than Ruiz by everyone except the WBA and that was the fight to be made. Despite what you keep saying, Ruiz-Holyfield for the vacant WBA belt was already in motion when Lewis signed to fight Botha. Botha was a warm up defence in between the Grant and Tua fights and got his shot based on his recent performance against Tyson. Who should he have fought instead?

Golota was as high as his career was going to get after beating up Bowe twice. Mavrovic was a mandatory and was also European champion (cuts no ice with me but it seems to with you). Rahman was ranked #4. Tyson was ranked #1, and being the richest fight in history probably had something to do with it too.

But for all that, I'm not arguing for Lewis' defences against people like Jackson, Grant, Tucker and Botha making him great like you are with Patterson. I never mentioned his defences at all, even though he made more than Patterson (even if you only count lineal defences) and against better opposition.



Futch can say what he likes. As Bowe's cornerman he's hardly neutral on the matter. What were Futch's views on Michael Dokes the night he fought Bowe?

And of course you think Ruiz would beat Lewis. If the question came up you'd probably argue that Brian London or Ron Stander would beat Lewis too.

So you now agree that you was incorrect when saying that "Lewis was Dominant from 1992-2000"

[Scott9945]

Not talking in riddles just common sense here.. we won't ever know if Lewis would have beaten or lost to John Ruiz the WBA No1 contender because Lewis never gave us the opportunity to see that fight. Lewis had the opportunity to fight Ruiz after he fought Michael Grant but instead he fought Frans Botha on the date laid-out for the Ruiz fight.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4529125.html

The Botha fight was created to fill in a spot on regular HBO. It was on a relatively small budget, and Ruiz with his Don King baggage didn't fit that criteria. And any public demand for a Lewis-Ruiz fight would have to be the product of someone's imagination. Champions with multiple titles dropping one occasionally is just part of the boxing culture we live in now.

[sonnyboyx2]

Harris was another soft touch defence, and not more deserving than Machen or Folley. These fights were derided at the time. You said Floyd's title defences mae him better than Lewis. Well of six successful defences, four were against fighters you'd trash Lewis for meeting and the two best opponents he defended against KO'd him. Johansson was not #1 when they had their third fight.



Klitschko was #1 contender as it happens. Grant was higher ranked than Ruiz by everyone except the WBA and that was the fight to be made. Despite what you keep saying, Ruiz-Holyfield for the vacant WBA belt was already in motion when Lewis signed to fight Botha. Botha was a warm up defence in between the Grant and Tua fights and got his shot based on his recent performance against Tyson. Who should he have fought instead?

Golota was as high as his career was going to get after beating up Bowe twice. Mavrovic was a mandatory and was also European champion (cuts no ice with me but it seems to with you). Rahman was ranked #4. Tyson was ranked #1, and being the richest fight in history probably had something to do with it too.

But for all that, I'm not arguing for Lewis' defences against people like Jackson, Grant, Tucker and Botha making him great like you are with Patterson. I never mentioned his defences at all, even though he made more than Patterson (even if you only count lineal defences) and against better opposition.



Futch can say what he likes. As Bowe's cornerman he's hardly neutral on the matter. What were Futch's views on Michael Dokes the night he fought Bowe?

And of course you think Ruiz would beat Lewis. If the question came up you'd probably argue that Brian London or Ron Stander would beat Lewis too.

Henry Cooper beat Zora Folley in 1958 Liston, Lavoranti and Doug Jones all KOd him during Patterson's title reign yet you claim him to be a more worthy challenger than unbeaten Roy Harris the No1 contender, Eddie Machen was destroyed in the opening round by Johansson in 1958 then lost to Liston, Folley & Harold Johnson as well as drawing with Williams during Patterson's title reign so again he was unworthy of a title fight, yet Patterson still fought and beat him in 1964..

You now start to get funny like BennyST claimed earlier with your claims about Lewis opponents Botha, Golota, Grant, Tua, Mavrovic, Rahman, Tucker claiming they was all No1 contenders or highly ranked...here is the ratings:

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Th...yweight--1990s

We have now settled the dispute about the opponents Lewis chose to fight in that they was all only fringe contenders or unranked contender like Frans Botha and that Patterson fought legitimate No1 contenders while champion... we will now take a look at Patterson's career from 1964-1972 and his opponents, Quarry (twice) Muhammad Ali (twice) Chuvalo, Bonavena, Ellis, Machen, Cooper, Daniels, Herring with Patterson holding his own in them losing to Ali due to injury and two well documented debatable decisions to Quarry & Ellis and winning the rest with his 1965 fight with Chuvalo being Ring Magazine Fight of the Year...

Lennox Lewis 1999-2003.... a very debatable points verdict victory over Evander Holyfield

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/9912/one.htm

followed by KO wins over two unworthy opponents Grant and the unranked Botha with Lewis being stripped of the WBA title for refusing to fight John Ruiz.. Lewis then out-pointed the grossly overweight David Tua before getting poleaxed by unranked journeyman Hasim Rahman, Lewis regained the WBC & IBF titles in a rematch from Rahman before being stripped of the IBF title for refusing to fight No1 contender Chris Byrd..Lewis then beat unranked Mike Tyson who was more than 13yrs past his best in 2002 before having his final career fight against Vitali Klitschko.

Do you now agree that Patterson is worthy of being ranked greater than Lewis.

Do you agree that your claim Lewis was dominant was incorrect and false.

[sonnyboyx2]

The Botha fight was created to fill in a spot on regular HBO. It was on a relatively small budget, and Ruiz with his Don King baggage didn't fit that criteria. And any public demand for a Lewis-Ruiz fight would have to be the product of someone's imagination. Champions with multiple titles dropping one occasionally is just part of the boxing culture we live in now.

Laughable comments.. read this article then check the date and venue of Lewis fight against the unranked Botha

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-4529125.html

[Kid McCoy]

Henry Cooper beat Zora Folley in 1958 Liston, Lavoranti and Doug Jones all KOd him during Patterson's title reign yet you claim him to be a more worthy challenger than unbeaten Roy Harris the No1 contender, Eddie Machen was destroyed in the opening round by Johansson in 1958 then lost to Liston, Folley & Harold Johnson as well as drawing with Williams during Patterson's title reign so again he was unworthy of a title fight, yet Patterson still fought and beat him in 1964..

Pete Rademacher had never even had a pro fight before. Who was more deserving: him, Machen or Folley?

Tom McNeeley was never ranked in the top 10, let alone beat a top contender. The NBA thought him an "unfit" opponent. Who was more deserving: him, Machen, Folley, Liston or Williams?

Brian London never beat a top heavyweight in his life. Who was more deserving: him, Machen or Folley?

And Roy Harris was never the #1 contender. Do you just make things up as you go along?

We have now settled the dispute about the opponents Lewis chose to fight in that they was all only fringe contenders or unranked contender like Frans Botha and that Patterson fought legitimate No1 contenders while champion... we will now take a look at Patterson's career from 1964-1972 and his opponents, Quarry (twice) Muhammad Ali (twice) Chuvalo, Bonavena, Ellis, Machen, Cooper, Daniels, Herring with Patterson holding his own in them losing to Ali due to injury and two well documented debatable decisions to Quarry & Ellis and winning the rest with his 1965 fight with Chuvalo being Ring Magazine Fight of the Year...

In Sonnyboy land perhaps but there's a reason why numerous people in this thread have pointed out how ridiculous some of your comments are.

I love how Machen was unworthy of a title shot in his prime but a post-breakdown Machen in 1965 is a great win. Chuvalo? Chuvalo was beaten 18 times in his career, and it didn't always take one of the elite to do the job. Bob Cleroux, Eduardo Corletti and incredibly Pete Rademacher all beat him. Bonavena, another close fight which you'd call a robbery if it involved Lewis.

Cooper was Euro-level and knocked out nearly every time he fought someone world class and it didn't take a top contender to beat him either (Roger Rischer, Amos Johnson, Joe Bygraves etc). Terry Daniels? You'd be ripping these guys to shreds if Lewis fought them. If you're having dodgy decisions against Quarry and Ellis then I'm having the gift draw in the first Holyfield fight and the premature stoppage against McCall. That last one will have you foaming at the mouth, I bet!

Lennox Lewis 1999-2003.... a very debatable points verdict victory over Evander Holyfield

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/9912/one.htm

followed by KO wins over two unworthy opponents Grant and the unranked Botha with Lewis being stripped of the WBA title for refusing to fight John Ruiz.. Lewis then out-pointed the grossly overweight David Tua before getting poleaxed by unranked journeyman Hasim Rahman, Lewis regained the WBC & IBF titles in a rematch from Rahman before being stripped of the IBF title for refusing to fight No1 contender Chris Byrd..Lewis then beat unranked Mike Tyson who was more than 13yrs past his best in 2002 before having his final career fight against Vitali Klitschko.

Like I said you don't debate Lewis, you just repeat the same biased, inaccurate statements again and again, even after other people point out that you're wrong.

[Barn]

Pete Rademacher had never even had a pro fight before. Who was more deserving: him, Machen or Folley?

Tom McNeeley was never ranked in the top 10, let alone beat a top contender. The NBA thought him an "unfit" opponent. Who was more deserving: him, Machen, Folley, Liston or Williams?

Brian London never beat a top heavyweight in his life. Who was more deserving: him, Machen or Folley?

And Roy Harris was never the #1 contender. Do you just make things up as you go along?



In Sonnyboy land perhaps but there's a reason why numerous people in this thread have pointed out how ridiculous some of your comments are.

I love how Machen was unworthy of a title shot in his prime but a post-breakdown Machen in 1965 is a great win. Chuvalo? Chuvalo was beaten 18 times in his career, and it didn't always take one of the elite to do the job. Bob Cleroux, Eduardo Corletti and incredibly Pete Rademacher all beat him. Bonavena, another close fight which you'd call a robbery if it involved Lewis.

Cooper was Euro-level and knocked out nearly every time he fought someone world class and it didn't take a top contender to beat him either (Roger Rischer, Amos Johnson, Joe Bygraves etc). Terry Daniels? You'd be ripping these guys to shreds if Lewis fought them. If you're having dodgy decisions against Quarry and Ellis then I'm having the gift draw in the first Holyfield fight and the premature stoppage against McCall. That last one will have you foaming at the mouth, I bet!



Like I said you don't debate Lewis, you just repeat the same biased, inaccurate statements again and again, even after other people point out that you're wrong.

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