Ranking Floyd Patterson Above Lennox Lewis, Can It Be Justified?

[sonnyboyx2]

Think your stretching here Sonny I remember Patterson's era very very well.
No problems with his defence against Jackson and Johanson deserved his shot because he beat Machen oh and Rademacher was unbeaten
But from 59 Liston was the man to beat to say otherwise is just being silly

When have i said otherwise?

when have i said anything about Liston?

show me where i have said Patterson did not keep Liston waiting

[GJC]

You stated that i was "INCORRECT" and i was not incorrect, if you have a problem with the European Boxing Board and why European Champions fight for a world title then go and take it up with them, put your case forward to them that you think they are being used as "easy defenses" etc etc... i said there was a dozen or more european champions had fought for the heavyweight title... you said i was incorrect but it now turns out that i am "Correct" so you are now claiming they was all just easy defences etc etc etc etc.. walofs

My point was the statement from Scott below is correct

[FONT=Arial][I][B]So how many times did the Euro title holder fight for the heavyweight title before then? Not nearly as many as you are implying I suppose.

The answer is twice Carpentier and Uzcudun. London wasn't even Euro champion. London reminds me of that John Lennon quote when asked whether Ringo Starr was the best drummer in the world. "ringo isn't even the best drummer in the Beatles"

[GJC]

When have i said otherwise?

when have i said anything about Liston?

show me where i have said Patterson did not keep Liston waiting

So you have to accept that Patterson was taking easy defences?
Personally I think Patterson's resume improved considerably after he was champion.

[sonnyboyx2]

So you have to accept that Patterson was taking easy defences?
Personally I think Patterson's resume improved considerably after he was champion.

No i dont accept that he was taking easy defences, he fought the top contenders and then got into a 3 fight series with No1 contender Johansson before moving on to Sonny Liston.. yes it seems that Liston was the best fighter in the world from 1959 omwards yet John Ruiz & Chris Byrd & Wlad Klitschko was the best fighters in the world from 2000-2003 did Lennox Lewis fight any of them?

[Kid McCoy]

you know i have beaten you in this discussion, i have fights of McNeely, Harris, London, Rademacher & Jackson they are all decent fighters and nothing remotely like the Drug-Addict who turned up to face Lewis in Tony Tucker or the grossly out of condition Phil Jackson... McNeely beat Logan, Besmanoff & Hunsaker all of who Muhammad Ali fought on his way to the title as well as him being undefeated and Top Ranked, Roy Harris was also undefeated and Top Ranked and had beaten some excellent fighters in Bob Baker, Charlie Norkus, Willie Pastrano & Willie Besmanoff, Tommy"Hurricane"Jackson was also a deserving challenger having beaten Ezzard Charles (twice) Johnny Williams, Lex Layne, Bob Baker & Clarence Henry

Discussion? You don't even discuss when it comes to Lewis. You just repeat the same myopic proclamations again and again, even when other people refute them. Everyone here probably knows them by heart now: Tucker...drug addict, Tua...fattest challenger ever, Morrison...HIV, Mercer...robbed, Ruddock...damaged goods and so on. Who else but you could trash Lewis for fighting old men and in the same post trash him for not fighting even older men?

Pretending that a bunch of fringe journeymen were worthy challengers just makes your Lewis-bashing look all the more ridiculous. London, McNeeley and Harris were fringe contenders who beat other fringe contenders. They were regarded as soft touch defences at the time because that's what they were. Rademacher had never even had a pro fight and you just called him deserving!! None of them remotely deserved a title shot, and certainly not ahead of Machen, Liston or Folley, and despite what you just claimed none was ever ranked #1. Patterson was actually close to being stripped for choosing McNeeley, an "unfit" opponent according to NBA:

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=SwosAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wMYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4422,2667922&dq=patterson+mcneeley&hl=en

[sonnyboyx2]

Discussion? You don't even discuss when it comes to Lewis. You just repeat the same myopic proclamations again and again, even when other people refute them. Everyone here probably knows them by heart now: Tucker...drug addict, Tua...fattest challenger ever, Morrison...HIV, Mercer...robbed, Ruddock...damaged goods and so on. Who else but you could trash Lewis for fighting old men and in the same post trash him for not fighting even older men?

Pretending that a bunch of fringe journeymen were worthy challengers just makes your Lewis-bashing look all the more ridiculous. London, McNeeley and Harris were fringe contenders who beat other fringe contenders. They were regarded as soft touch defences at the time because that's what they were. Rademacher had never even had a pro fight and you just called him deserving!! None of them remotely deserved a title shot, and certainly not ahead of Machen, Liston or Folley, and despite what you just claimed none was ever ranked #1. Patterson was actually close to being stripped for choosing McNeeley, an "unfit" opponent according to NBA:

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers?...mcneeley&hl=en

you go on about Machen but Machen was destroyed in less than a round by Johansson in 1958 and by Liston in 1960 Liston never came to into the fold to 1959 when he beat Cleveland Williams the first time and Patterson was fighting his No1 contender Johansson which went into a 3 fight series taking us to 1961 Patterson then fought McNeeley in a tune-up fight then onto Liston... why are you trying to imply that Patterson ducked opponents who was not viable contenders...

If you think that i am incorrect in my labeling Lewis opponents as "Damaged Goods, Fattest to fight for title, HIV, Junkie etc etc then what should i be calling them in your opinion because they certainly was not the best opponents out there for Lewis to have been fighting.. i listed for you all the fights for the titles during 1992-2000 and the champions who took part in those fights yet Lewis was not among them.. in your eyes you claim they all ducked Lewis even tho they all fought eachother on many occasions, you claim they was all afraid of the fighter who was poleaxed by a journeyman sparring partner... then you claim Lewis was Dominant during that period.

[Kid McCoy]

you go on about Machen but Machen was destroyed in less than a round by Johansson in 1958 and by Liston in 1960 Liston never came to into the fold to 1959 when he beat Cleveland Williams the first time and Patterson was fighting his No1 contender Johansson which went into a 3 fight series taking us to 1961 Patterson then fought McNeeley in a tune-up fight then onto Liston... why are you trying to imply that Patterson ducked opponents who was not viable contenders...

Because at least four of his six successful title defences were against opponents who were not "viable contenders". That's not even arguable.

If you think that i am incorrect in my labeling Lewis opponents as "Damaged Goods, Fattest to fight for title, HIV, Junkie etc etc then what should i be calling them in your opinion because they certainly was not the best opponents out there for Lewis to have been fighting.. i listed for you all the fights for the titles during 1992-2000 and the champions who took part in those fights yet Lewis was not among them.. in your eyes you claim they all ducked Lewis even tho they all fought eachother on many occasions, you claim they was all afraid of the fighter who was poleaxed by a journeyman sparring partner

Because Tucker was not a "junkie" when he fought Lewis and he sure didn't fight like one that night. He was also a mandatory, so if Lewis had refused to face him he'd have been stripped of the title and you'd have another name for your 'fighters ducked by Lewis' list.

Lewis actually faced four of those fighters you named from 1992-00. Of the rest, Bowe and Moorer were not interested in him and if he'd fought Foreman and Holmes they'd just be two more names for your 'old and shot fighters Lewis faced' list.

[sonnyboyx2]

Because at least four of his six successful title defences were against opponents who were not "viable contenders". That's not even arguable.



Because Tucker was not a "junkie" when he fought Lewis and he sure didn't fight like one that night. He was also a mandatory, so if Lewis had refused to face him he'd have been stripped of the title and you'd have another name for your 'fighters ducked by Lewis' list.

Lewis actually faced four of those fighters you named from 1992-00. Of the rest, Bowe and Moorer were not interested in him and if he'd fought Foreman and Holmes they'd just be two more names for your 'old and shot fighters Lewis faced' list.

Because at least four of his six successful title defences were against opponents who were not "viable contenders". ?
Tommy"Hurricane"Jackson & Ingemar Johansson was both No1 contenders, Roy Harris was No4 contender

was Mike Tyson, Frank Bruno, Frans Botha, Hasim Rahman, Michael Grant, Andrew Golota, Tommy Morrison & Vitali Klitschko No1 contenders for Lennox Lewis

You claim Tony Tucker was not a junkie and a worthy challenger.. here is what Eddie Futch said of him:

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/access/61780405.html?dids=61780405:61780405&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+30%2C+1993&author=Ron+Borges%2C+Globe+Staff&pub=Boston+Globe+%28pre-1997+Fulltext%29&desc=Missed+match+Bowe+debacle+was+turn-off&pqatl=google

[sonnyboyx2]

Because at least four of his six successful title defences were against opponents who were not "viable contenders". That's not even arguable.



Because Tucker was not a "junkie" when he fought Lewis and he sure didn't fight like one that night. He was also a mandatory, so if Lewis had refused to face him he'd have been stripped of the title and you'd have another name for your 'fighters ducked by Lewis' list.

Lewis actually faced four of those fighters you named from 1992-00. Of the rest, Bowe and Moorer were not interested in him and if he'd fought Foreman and Holmes they'd just be two more names for your 'old and shot fighters Lewis faced' list.

yes Lewis fought four of those fighters i listed, he got poleaxed by Oliver McCall, struggled to beat an over the hill Frank Bruno, turned down $13.5 million to face Mike Tyson for the title in 1996 waiting another 6yrs unto Tyson had completely self destructed and had served more time in prison as well as two brutal beatings by Evander Holyfield, Lewis fought Holyfield at the tail-end of the decade getting a unfortunate draw and a victory which most at ringside thought he did not deserve to get yet you claim Lewis was "Dominant"... Yet there is no denying that from 1955-60 Floyd Patterson was Dominant and Patterson fought fighters who was "At the Top of their Game" unlike Lewis.

[GJC]

You are rather angry at me now GJC for proving you wrong about the "Dozen or more European Heavy weight champions who went on to fight for the heavyweight championship of the world" and that was just at heavyweight, if i was to go through all the weight divisions the number of European Champions who went on to fight for a World Title would run into hundreds of fighters... but i accept your apology GJC, i put it down to age.

My point was that at Patterson's time or indeed any other to say that to be European champion is a fast track to a world title shot is inaccurate and I have proved that. I don't get angry Sonny when you discuss Lewis, far from it You agree that Johanson was the third person who as European champion fought for the world title?