Louis's Resume Greater Than Ali's Resume Of Wins, Can It Be Justified?

[Greatest1942]

It does when we compare resume, where Alis is on a totally different level.

Joe louis was not on Alis level ability wise either. People highlight the very few flaws Ali had but forget the ones that Louis had. Louis was knocked down by the likes of Cinderella man and Galento. Ali has a higher KO% than these guys against much better opposition. Billy Conn who came in under the LHW limit was able to outbox Louis before being stopped in the 13th.

Before anyone mentions cooper knocking Ali down, notice I didnt mention Louis getting KOed by Schmelling as both were green at those stages. Ali proved his chin later on when he took the best Foreman and Shavers had. His recovery ability is also shown by him getting up in Frazier 1.

Question for you do you happen to know Leon Spink's record?

[Spartacus Sully]

It does when we compare resume, where Alis is on a totally different level.

Joe louis was not on Alis level ability wise either. People highlight the very few flaws Ali had but forget the ones that Louis had. Louis was knocked down by the likes of Cinderella man and Galento. Ali has a higher KO% than these guys against much better opposition. Billy Conn who came in under the LHW limit was able to outbox Louis before being stopped in the 13th.

Before anyone mentions cooper knocking Ali down, notice I didnt mention Louis getting KOed by Schmelling as both were green at those stages. Ali proved his chin later on when he took the best Foreman and Shavers had. His recovery ability is also shown by him getting up in Frazier 1.

nope.

who vrs who is all opinion and when you compare resume its even more up to opinion because you can say foreman would destroy schemelling but max baer would destroy foreman so where does that get us? absloutely no where.

triangle theorys hold no water.

and the whole billy con thing...now why would any one expect the 25 lb lighter and younger person to outbox the 25 lb heavier person....

ketchel out boxed johnson and fitzsimmons out boxed jeffries.......Choynski out boxed johnson and knocked him the **** out.

what does that say about conn? that hes with the likes of ketchel and fitzsimmons.

id take conn over patterson or moore.

[Barn]

I won't try where Jab failed but to ask you a question. Please stay with me

When I watch George Chuvalo vs Ali , I see that the slow George (slower than a prime Louis anyway), getting to Ali and really getting to Ali with his body shots. Louis could not do the same? Or other ATG greats? Or do you believe that the damage they will do if they landed like George did will be the same?

When I see Eddie Futch's plan for Norton and read what Louis said about Ali it seems to be the same. When I see Louis parry Jabs I see he can do as Norton did.

To sum it up do you think Louis was not fast enough to do what George did or not skill full enough to do what Norton did (take him to the ropes parry his jab , jab with him etc).

Ali was fast but as I see it even in his prime (of speed) , guys like Chuvalo got to him and ****** his body. I don't see why Louis or other ATG greats could not do so too.

And I diifer about the resumes, I believe quality quantity wise Sugar Ray, Greb ,Sam have the better resumes.

Amongst heavy's as for the better record Louis has it. Better percentage against top 10 contenders, lesser losses , more Ko% etc. But I will agree that Ali fought better fighters like Foreman, Frazier Liston (top 10 heavys) etc.

I have no problem if you rank Ali at #1. Ali or Louis as #1 heavys is okay with me.

Excelent Post.

[StarshipTrooper]

Still in the second fight vs Chuvalo Ali got hammered in the ribs. While ranking heavy's you said speed was your most important criteria for favouring Ali. Good fighters fight better the second time around so naturally Chuvalo got hammered, he still got to Ali even the second time. Did Ali win vs Chuvalo the 2nd time because he was faster or because he fought a better fight? My point is simply that if George cann get to Ali so can Louis,Dempsey and a host of other ATG greats.

You say Ali's prime was when he was in exile. But how much more faster could he have been?He never learnt anything more..any more conventional boxing skills...would he be much faster? But to drop this I will conclude with saying that its not fair to judge someone with what he could have become..since there are a host of fighters who could have become greater too potentially. Louis also wasted 4 years in the army. I sincerely think those were his prime years too( atleast the first part). Situtations were different albeit but the end result the same. I sincerely do not believe that Ali was so fast that he could not be touched, because even in his prime (about speed) he was touched by lesser fighters and hit frequently enough to make me suspect he will be so by ATG greats.

Yes Ali did not loose in his prime, but the Frazier fight by the end of the 15th round was quite clear cut against him. When Louis lost against Schmelling he was clearly not in his prime but stepping into it. He never lost again till he retired the first time. When Jack Dempsey was beaten by Gene Tunney he was past it and he was also not beaten when his prime started which many state started in 1918. Yes he was inactive but still fought over 15 fights. Rocky Marciano never lost. Period. Holmes never lost in his prime. I will put a brake and state that ATG greats generally don't lose in their primes. Ali was no exception.

No Louis never fought like Norton. But he did Parry jabs and counter a lot. While Norton just jabbed back, Louis might fire a right back. And in the ring 1967 (I may be wrong about the date), Louis wrote explicitly how he would handle Clay. Later when Futch revealed his plan they seemed quite similar (except the JAb part). Louis won't fight like Norton , but parrying and firing back is not Norton's style most old timers did that. The point being Louis had everything that was needed to trouble Ali, what Norton could do Louis did better.(essentially Futch put it best, when he said the jab was the problem which Ali never solved). I will say again although their styles were never the same Louis had what Norton had and in better quantity and quality(better parrying skills, better counter punching, better stamina, better punch power,by a wide margin and a technique).

I put a stock in KO%. Because there are some guys who if you don't put away early will trouble you later. And the later you get them the more trouble will you be in. And also a KO is a less disputed manner of settling a fight.It also proves the other guys dominance. KO a guy cold is a sure way of stamping your authority. Atleast you don't have to rely on judges. Ask marvin Hagler. Its important and much more emphatic way of er..settling a dispute. More Kudos deserved there IMO.

I wrote out a response to this only to have it dissappear on me. I'll respond as soon as I have enough time write it out again. BBS.

PS. You made a well thought out post and I want to give it attention it deserves rather something flip and off the cuff.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

I wrote out a response to this only to have it dissappear on me. I'll respond as soon as I have enough time write it out again. BBS.

PS. You made a well thought out post and I want to give it attention it deserves rather something flip and off the cuff.

Poet

I appreciate that Poet.

[StarshipTrooper]

Ok! I finally am able to write out a response to this post! As I said before it's a well thought post that deserves more than a flippant answer.

Still in the second fight vs Chuvalo Ali got hammered in the ribs. While ranking heavy's you said speed was your most important criteria for favouring Ali. Good fighters fight better the second time around so naturally Chuvalo got hammered, he still got to Ali even the second time. Did Ali win vs Chuvalo the 2nd time because he was faster or because he fought a better fight? My point is simply that if George cann get to Ali so can Louis,Dempsey and a host of other ATG greats.

But again, Ali was past-prime for the second Chuvalo fight. He no longer had the legs or reflexes to avoid punches the way he did pre-exhile. And for the record, in the FIRST fight Chuvalo took a lopsided beating from a prime Ali.

You say Ali's prime was when he was in exile. But how much more faster could he have been?He never learnt anything more..any more conventional boxing skills...would he be much faster? But to drop this I will conclude with saying that its not fair to judge someone with what he could have become..since there are a host of fighters who could have become greater too potentially.

I say Ali's prime was PRE-exhile (64-67) with his prime ENDING with his ban from boxing. Would those years he missed have been a continuance of his prime? Yes, probably, but chose not to speculate. What I DO know is when he came back he no longer had the reflexes footspeed he had before the ban hence the reason he was tagged more frequently and was forced to change his style of fighting.

Louis also wasted 4 years in the army. I sincerely think those were his prime years too (atleast the first part). Situtations were different albeit but the end result the same.

Louis did indeed lose those years to the Army but I think everyone will agree he wasn't the same fighter anymore when he returned to the ring. Prime for prime would be a pre-Army Louis against a pre-ban Ali.

I sincerely do not believe that Ali was so fast that he could not be touched, because even in his prime (about speed) he was touched by lesser fighters and hit frequently enough to make me suspect he will be so by ATG greats.

Even the best defensive fighter gets hit in every fight, even such masters as Pep and Whitaker. Despite what his demented fan-bois claim even Mayweather gets hit cleanly in every fight. So it's not a question of whether he would get hit or not. The real question is would he get hit often enough for his opponent to win? To my mind no. Ali never got tagged frequently enough in his prime for an opponent to outpoint him, not even Patterson who had nearly as fast hands as Ali was able to do it. Certainly no one was knocking Ali out: His chin was about as good as any I've seen in 35 years of watching boxing. Maybe guys like Cobb had a better one but then Cobb wasn't human anyway. Ali also took it to the body flat out better than anyone I've ever seen.

Yes Ali did not loose in his prime, but the Frazier fight by the end of the 15th round was quite clear cut against him. When Louis lost against Schmelling he was clearly not in his prime but stepping into it. He never lost again till he retired the first time. When Jack Dempsey was beaten by Gene Tunney he was past it and he was also not beaten when his prime started which many state started in 1918. Yes he was inactive but still fought over 15 fights. Rocky Marciano never lost. Period. Holmes never lost in his prime. I will put a brake and state that ATG greats generally don't lose in their primes. Ali was no exception.

But again that's moot since Ali was past-prime for the first Frazier fight. I would also point out that ATG great Heavyweights usually don't have the opportunity to fight other in-prime ATG Heavyweights. If they did then most certainly they would pick up an L here and there as one's chances of taking an odd loss here and there go up with a tougher schedual. A past-prime Ali fought and in-prime ATG Heavyweight in Foreman.....and won.

No Louis never fought like Norton. But he did Parry jabs and counter a lot. While Norton just jabbed back, Louis might fire a right back. And in the ring 1967 (I may be wrong about the date), Louis wrote explicitly how he would handle Clay. Later when Futch revealed his plan they seemed quite similar (except the JAb part). Louis won't fight like Norton , but parrying and firing back is not Norton's style most old timers did that. The point being Louis had everything that was needed to trouble Ali, what Norton could do Louis did better.(essentially Futch put it best, when he said the jab was the problem which Ali never solved). I will say again although their styles were never the same Louis had what Norton had and in better quantity and quality(better parrying skills, better counter punching, better stamina, better punch power,by a wide margin and a technique).

It wasn't Norton's jab and parrying that caused Ali problems it was his awkward crab-like style that gave ALL slick boxers fits. There's no way Louis is going to emulate THAT.

I put a stock in KO%. Because there are some guys who if you don't put away early will trouble you later. And the later you get them the more trouble will you be in. And also a KO is a less disputed manner of settling a fight.It also proves the other guys dominance. KO a guy cold is a sure way of stamping your authority. Atleast you don't have to rely on judges. Ask marvin Hagler. Its important and much more emphatic way of er..settling a dispute. More Kudos deserved there IMO.

While it may be more desirable to take matters out of the judges hands to be on the safe side, ultimately a dominant win is a dominant win regardless of how it ends. To me, Lewis' lopsided win over Tua was more impressive than Foreman's KO win over Moorer since Lennox dominated the fight while George was BEING dominated up until the KO.

Ultimately KO rates are a function of number of factors but the one that always is brought up is punching power. Punching power is in my view the LEAST important of the major traits that make up a fighter. Chin, defense, stamina, ect. ect. are more important. This is why slick boxers with average power have been able to consistantly win championships. It wasn't because there weren't any punchers around at the time, it was because punching power is only ONE of the major traits and not the most important one at that. Look at Willie Pep. He was by any measure an ATG fighter. Certainly one of the three best ever at Featherweight. Pep couldn't break an egg with a hammer. Look at HIS KO%.....is Pep any less a great because he KOed a smaller percentage than Ali did?

Poet

[Greatest1942]

Ok! I finally am able to write out a response to this post! As I said before it's a well thought post that deserves more than a flippant answer.




But again, Ali was past-prime for the second Chuvalo fight. He no longer had the legs or reflexes to avoid punches the way he did pre-exhile. And for the record, in the FIRST fight Chuvalo took a lopsided beating from a prime Ali.




I say Ali's prime was PRE-exhile (64-67) with his prime ENDING with his ban from boxing. Would those years he missed have been a continuance of his prime? Yes, probably, but chose not to speculate. What I DO know is when he came back he no longer had the reflexes footspeed he had before the ban hence the reason he was tagged more frequently and was forced to change his style of fighting.




Louis did indeed lose those years to the Army but I think everyone will agree he wasn't the same fighter anymore when he returned to the ring. Prime for prime would be a pre-Army Louis against a pre-ban Ali.




Even the best defensive fighter gets hit in every fight, even such masters as Pep and Whitaker. Despite what his demented fan-bois claim even Mayweather gets hit cleanly in every fight. So it's not a question of whether he would get hit or not. The real question is would he get hit often enough for his opponent to win? To my mind no. Ali never got tagged frequently enough in his prime for an opponent to outpoint him, not even Patterson who had nearly as fast hands as Ali was able to do it. Certainly no one was knocking Ali out: His chin was about as good as any I've seen in 35 years of watching boxing. Maybe guys like Cobb had a better one but then Cobb wasn't human anyway. Ali also took it to the body flat out better than anyone I've ever seen.




But again that's moot since Ali was past-prime for the first Frazier fight. I would also point out that ATG great Heavyweights usually don't have the opportunity to fight other in-prime ATG Heavyweights. If they did then most certainly they would pick up an L here and there as one's chances of taking an odd loss here and there go up with a tougher schedual. A past-prime Ali fought and in-prime ATG Heavyweight in Foreman.....and won.




It wasn't Norton's jab and parrying that caused Ali problems it was his awkward crab-like style that gave ALL slick boxers fits. There's no way Louis is going to emulate THAT.




While it may be more desirable to take matters out of the judges hands to be on the safe side, ultimately a dominant win is a dominant win regardless of how it ends. To me, Lewis' lopsided win over Tua was more impressive than Foreman's KO win over Moorer since Lennox dominated the fight while George was BEING dominated up until the KO.

Ultimately KO rates are a function of number of factors but the one that always is brought up is punching power. Punching power is in my view the LEAST important of the major traits that make up a fighter. Chin, defense, stamina, ect. ect. are more important. This is why slick boxers with average power have been able to consistantly win championships. It wasn't because there weren't any punchers around at the time, it was because punching power is only ONE of the major traits and not the most important one at that. Look at Willie Pep. He was by any measure an ATG fighter. Certainly one of the three best ever at Featherweight. Pep couldn't break an egg with a hammer. Look at HIS KO%.....is Pep any less a great because he KOed a smaller percentage than Ali did?

Poet

Poet with due respect you make a mistake here. I wanted to let you know that George in both the fights got to Ali and hurt him .Even in the first fight he ****** Ali to the body frequently, the Ali at top speed as you put it. If that version of George could reach Ali so could Louis or Dempsey who were far better. read this if you don't believe me

"Broadcast Date: March 29, 1966
Fight night. March 29, 1966. Maple Leaf Gardens. Fifteen rounds for the World Heavyweight Title. George Chuvalo, a working-class boxer from Toronto, takes on Muhammad Ali, "the greatest of all time". In this historic clip from CBC Radio, Don Chevrier and **** Beddoes set the stage for this epic title tussle. Once the ring introductions are completed, Don Dunphy, the dean of fight announcers, prepares to call the blow-by-blow action in what promises to be one of the most extraordinary events in Canadian sport history.

Buoyed by the hometown crowd, Chuvalo hangs with Ali as they enter the final rounds. But the champion is too quick for him. Chuvalo has lost his steam and throws a flurry of punches "as wild as a night in the Yukon." Ali, then still known as Cassius Clay, continues to tag Chuvalo with crushing body blows. And yet, he takes everything Ali dishes out and keeps going forward.

"How many would have thought it would go this far?" asks Dunphy at the start of the 15th round. Chuvalo is behind on points. He knows he has to knock Ali out in order to win the fight. He has three minutes to do it. Midway through the round, Chuvalo explodes. He lands four vicious left-hands to Ali's jaw before clubbing the champion with a wicked right to the head. For the first time in the fight Ali is in trouble. "Chuvalo may have hurt Clay! Chuvalo may have hurt Clay!" screams Dunphy.

Sensing an upset, the crowd rises to its feet as their hero goes in for the kill, but Chuvalo can't put away the champion. The bell rings to end the fight. Photographers, newsmen and ******s crowd around ringside as the announcer declares the winner. Ali wins by a unanimous decision and retains the title. In an instant, Chuvalo's life-long dreams are dashed. "Certainly no mistake about the outcome," says Chevrier, "[but] Chuvalo can be proud."

So we read passages like [B He lands four vicious left-hands to Ali's jaw before clubbing the champion with a wicked right to the head. For the first time in the fight Ali is in trouble. "Chuvalo may have hurt Clay! Chuvalo may have hurt Clay!" screams Dunphy.[/B]. This is what I was referring to as Chuvalo getting to a prime version of Ali and hurting him. Throughout the fight Chuvalo ****** Ali's body. Ali took them fine. But if it was Louis, Dempsey or others pounding him it wouldn't have been same not even remotely close. You can see the film to verify.

Moving on to other parts of your post Louis before he went to the army had some excellent fights vs Giants Abe Simons and Baer whom he destroyed. Nat thought Baer - Louis 2 was the best version of Louis ever. So going into the army Louis was at his best or close to his best. And when he came out he was not the same. So we can safely say he lost the best parts of his career too in the army can't we. Same as Ali who was not the same after the exile too. Don't you see a diff. between the Louis-Simons 2 vs the post exile Louis. Is there too much doubt that Louis also lost atleast two good years of his prime in the army...he was at or close to his best when he went to the army and never was the same when he came back ain't it? Thats what I meant.

Oh...about getting hit to tell you the truth Poet, if Ali got hit by Louis, Dempsey to the body as often he wouldn't have that legspeed IMO. They were far better and more effective puncher than George Chuvalo. Dempsey top 10 heavy puncher and Louis #1. Chuvalo #200 and I am being polite I think .Still Ali pissed blood after the 1st fight ain't it?
Lets take Norton's case, Ali at his prime jabs, Norton jabs with him Ali's jab blocked, Norton's land (you can't move while jabbing quick enough to avoid another good jab), they clinch Norton takes him to the ropes( No speed doesn't count in a clinch and ****s his body). Good technique I swear Poet can nullify speed if applied correctly. Norton did not have an ATG great jab, like Louis or Holmes. Louis's jab was harder, did a lot of damage and faster. He will be hit and unlike George or Sonny Banks or Folley ATG greats can capitalize. Ali can win, but so can they. Its not fore gone conclusion.

And Oh...Norton's jab and parrying troubled Ali the most, I will take Eddie Futch's word on that. Louis could easily emulate that, isn't it?

See I don't say that if you can't KO you are not great. It isn't so. But if you KO top ranked contenders consistently you get extra kudos in my book thats all. Pep overshadows Ali due to longevity , number of fights etc but what if he fought around 50-70 fights as well? Is it not true that KO is a better and surer and more exclamatory way of settling disputes. When we dissect a boxer we do look at his punching power, accuracy, also right? Its just not about the ability to outpoint is it, or avoiding punches right? If you can do all that and still Knock the other guy out, hey you sure have an advantage isn't it mate. As you give speed a criteria , why not give power a criteria too, boxing is the sweet science but also the science of beating the other guy. Speed, power , accuracy , stamina, techinque, chin ,all should be rated ain't it ? And what better way to rate power than KO? As I told you if you win consistently by Ko you are proving your dominance, power and also winning settling it emphatically. Scoring more Ko's gives an edge to your resume IMo, but it shouldn't be that if you can't Ko you will lose. Which I think you will agree was not the case with Louis he could box and he could punch. To finish off If Some one has the exact same number of fights , wins and losses, with same quality, who will you pick? The guy with higher or lesser KO%?

No problems if you rate Ali #1, but can I ask you to take a look at the other side too except speed. Just a thought mate. As I said long ago Ali or Louis at #1 is fine.

[StarshipTrooper]

Anyways it was good arguing with you, but you took a long time answering the post. No problems if you rate Ali #1, but can I ask you to take a look at the other side too except speed. Just a thought mate. As I said long ago Ali or Louis at #1 is fine.

Well, like I said you made a well thought out post and it deserved more than an off-the-cuff response Unfortunately I've been rather swamped this week and unable to do more than make the odd quick quip here and there :frustrated9:

Poet

[Greatest1942]

Well, like I said you made a well thought out post and it deserved more than an off-the-cuff response Unfortunately I've been rather swamped this week and unable to do more than make the odd quick quip here and there :frustrated9:

Poet

I was kidding mate. No problems what so ever.To tell you the truth I appreciate what you did. Thanks for that mate

[StarshipTrooper]

I was kidding mate. No problems what so ever.To tell you the truth I appreciate what you did. Thanks for that mate

My pleasure! When someone makes a well reasoned post I want to make a well reasoned reply. To my mind I owe that poster no less: If they're going to put in the work to make serious post then I should give an equal amount of my time and effort

Poet