Ranking Hopkins Over Hagler, Can It Be Justified?

[BennyST]

This'll be a huge post people. But, I'll do a breakdown with ya eh Burgundy? I agree. Lets forget Hearns, Duran, Tito and Oscar. Focus on the MW wins without the big names. Go through them properly. Scientific like eh? I'll throw in some of my own for Hopkins too eh? We'll look at the opponent, but not just the opponent. We'll look at the opponents best wins as well to see how good they really were. In this age of records, it's easy to get confused with someone who has a 40-2 record, but not a single good opponent on it, as being a good fighter when they are in fact just ****e. Anyway....

Hopkins
Champions; Johnson, Brown, Jackson, Holmes, Joppy, Aquino
Contenders; Mercado, Eastman, Echols, Hakkar, Vanderpool, Allen, Lipsey, Powell.

Johnson=weird win but still good. At the time Johnson was not at all formed as a good fighter and would lose nearly every major fight he had for years afterward until maybe Ulrich or Harding five years later. After Hopkins he lost to Sosa, Kiwanuka (?), Ottke, Vanderpool, Branco, Sheika, Harmon, Gonzalez, before winning his title.
Brown=shot to **** club fighter ATT. Very good name though.
Jackson=done as a top fighter. Good name though.
Holmes=I think this is his best MW win apart from Tito.
Joppy=His best win along with Holmes, Tito, Oscar
Aquino=Shot. Good fighter though. Was a good WW and JMW.
Mercado=doesn't even belong on the list of good fighters he faced. He was ****. Full stop. His one decent win was over old Ricardo Nunez who was crap too. Had thirty fights and lost ten of them by KO. His only claim to fame is the Hopkins draw.
Eastman=ok. Best win over Evans Ashira maybe.
Echols=ok. Best win over Charles Brewer.
Hakkar=I don't know. Best win over Christian Sanavia maybe? Or Mamadou Thiam (when Thiam was 6-0 though)
Vanderpool=Best win over SMW Johnson or Tito Mendoza?
Allen=best win Marlon Hayes? Tito Mendoza maybe?
Lipsey=best win over Sanderline Willaims or Tyrone Trice.
Powell=best win Allan Bonamie

Do you recognise these guys as good names? Apart from Joppy, Holmes, Johnson, Brown etc? That's their best wins. I didn't bother listing their losses or worst losses. But, with their best wins over guys like that ie. half decent contenders or, at best, alphabet titlists, a win over Eugene Hart for Hagler is easily as legitimate and better for the most part than all but Holmes, Joppy Johnson etc.

For example; you list Mercado as a good win in comparison to Hagler's good wins yes? Mercado ended his career at 19-10. Never won a title and his best win was over Ricardo Nunez 50-20, whose best win was Miguel Arroyo. None of them being titlists of any sort. His claim to fame was just fighting Hopkins. He is seen as a decent fighter just because he fought Hopkins.

I see that as pretty pale to someone like Eugene Hart, who you didn't even mention and probably skipped straight past as insignificant, but who fought fighters like Hagler, Briscoe, Antuofermo, Fullmer, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Denny Moyer, Chucho Garcia, Seales etc.

His best win would probably be Don Fullmer maybe. Or Denny Moyer. Or Chucho Garcia. Maybe because he drew with Bennie Briscoe he should be thought of as a good win?

Anyway...Do you know Don Fullmer? He was the guy who beat HOFers Joey Archer, Emile Griffith, Bobo Olson, and Jimmy Ellis (yes, heavyweight champ Jimmy Ellis), Andy Kendall, Tom Boggs, along with two close fights with Nino Benvenuti among many others. Garcia was a good win, as was Seales though. Garcia beat guys like Joe Brown, yes HOFer Joe Brown, and Baby Vasquez.

I'd say that's a bit better than Mercado and his win over Ricardo Nunez.

What about Eastman? You say he's one of Hopkins best MW wins yes? Apart from guys like Tito, Oscar and the other champions like Holmes and Joppy obviously. So, let's compare him to one of the other guys you didn't even mention at all on Hagler's resume and thought insignificant, especially in comparison to someone as good as Eastman for BHop, and who was not one of Hagler's best wins at all either.

Eastman's best wins were; Robert McCracken, Andrew 'Six Heads' Lewis, Evans Ashira and Hacine Cherifi I guess. Pretty good I suppose. No great champion among them or HOFer. Lewis was a WW champ very briefly and Cherifi was a JMW champ briefly too. His record is 46-7 with losses to Kwesi Jones, Wayne Elcock, Arthur Abraham, Edison Miranda, John Duddy (?), Joppy, Hopkins. Lost his world title shots but was an EU title holder.

What about Briscoe? You didn't mention him on Hagler's resume did you? Let's look at his competition first; In his career he fought HOFers, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Emille Griffith, Rodrigo Valdez, Georgie Benton, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Tony Mundine (if you say Echols is a good because he 'hung' with Anthony Mundine, then this is a great win because Briscoe KTFO out of the very fine 45-2 top MW contender and title challenger Tony Mundine), etc etc.

His best win in comparison to McCracken, Lewis or Cherifi? I'd say it was probably Eddie Muhammad (you know, LHW champ, the guy in the amazing wins over HOFer Matthew Saad Muhammad and Marvin Johnson? Great fights those) or George Benton (the guy that beat HOFers like MW champ Joey Giardello, along with HW champ Jimmy Ellis, and Bobby Boyd; you know, that guy who beat HOFer Gene Fullmer who beat that other guy called Ray Robinson? I think he might have been a HOFer) or maybe it was his draws with HOF legends Emile Griffith and Carlos Monzon in fights he should have won? Though, his win over Rafael Gutierrez was pretty good. He was that guy that beat HOFers Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Curtis Cokes, and other greats LC Morgan, Battling Torres etc). Art Hernandez was aother good win. He was the guy that drew with Ray Robinson and beat Denny Moyer. His win over Tony Mundine was good too. Damn, that was a lot of H, O, and F's in there.

What do you think? Does that put a new perspective on just some of those wins? Only two mind you. It's pretty easy to pull out others like that that weren't mentioned on Hagler's resume. As I said, it's somewhat underrated.

[StarshipTrooper]

This'll be a huge post people. But, I'll do a breakdown with ya eh Burgundy? I agree. Lets forget Hearns, Duran, Tito and Oscar. Focus on the MW wins without the big names. Go through them properly. Scientific like eh? I'll throw in some of my own for Hopkins too eh? We'll look at the opponent, but not just the opponent. We'll look at the opponents best wins as well to see how good they really were. In this age of records, it's easy to get confused with someone who has a 40-2 record, but not a single good opponent on it, as being a good fighter when they are in fact just ****e. Anyway....

Hopkins
Champions; Johnson, Brown, Jackson, Holmes, Joppy, Aquino
Contenders; Mercado, Eastman, Echols, Hakkar, Vanderpool, Allen, Lipsey, Powell.

Johnson=weird win but still good. At the time Johnson was not at all formed as a good fighter and would lose nearly every major fight he had for years afterward until maybe Ulrich or Harding five years later. After Hopkins he lost to Sosa, Kiwanuka (?), Ottke, Vanderpool, Branco, Sheika, Harmon, Gonzalez, before winning his title.
Brown=shot to **** club fighter ATT. Very good name though.
Jackson=done as a top fighter. Good name though.
Holmes=I think this is his best MW win apart from Tito.
Joppy=His best win along with Holmes, Tito, Oscar
Aquino=Shot. Good fighter though. Was a good WW and JMW.
Mercado=doesn't even belong on the list of good fighters he faced. He was ****. Full stop. His one decent win was over old Ricardo Nunez who was crap too. Had thirty fights and lost ten of them by KO. His only claim to fame is the Hopkins draw.
Eastman=ok. Best win over Evans Ashira maybe.
Echols=ok. Best win over Charles Brewer.
Hakkar=I don't know. Best win over Christian Sanavia maybe? Or Mamadou Thiam (when Thiam was 6-0 though)
Vanderpool=Best win over SMW Johnson or Tito Mendoza?
Allen=best win Marlon Hayes? Tito Mendoza maybe?
Lipsey=best win over Sanderline Willaims or Tyrone Trice.
Powell=best win Allan Bonamie

Do you recognise these guys as good names? Apart from Joppy, Holmes, Johnson, Brown etc? That's their best wins. I didn't bother listing their losses or worst losses. But, with their best wins over guys like that ie. half decent contenders or, at best, alphabet titlists, a win over Eugene Hart for Hagler is easily as legitimate and better for the most part than all but Holmes, Joppy Johnson etc.

For example; you list Mercado as a good win in comparison to Hagler's good wins yes? Mercado ended his career at 19-10. Never won a title and his best win was over Ricardo Nunez 50-20, whose best win was Miguel Arroyo. None of them being titlists of any sort. His claim to fame was just fighting Hopkins. He is seen as a decent fighter just because he fought Hopkins.

I see that as pretty pale to someone like Eugene Hart, who you didn't even mention and probably skipped straight past as insignificant, but who fought fighters like Hagler, Briscoe, Antuofermo, Fullmer, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Denny Moyer, Chucho Garcia, Seales etc.

His best win would probably be Don Fullmer maybe. Or Denny Moyer. Or Chucho Garcia. Maybe because he drew with Bennie Briscoe he should be thought of as a good win?

Anyway...Do you know Don Fullmer? He was the guy who beat HOFers Joey Archer, Emile Griffith, Bobo Olson, and Jimmy Ellis (yes, heavyweight champ Jimmy Ellis), Andy Kendall, Tom Boggs, along with two close fights with Nino Benvenuti among many others. Garcia was a good win, as was Seales though. Garcia beat guys like Joe Brown, yes HOFer Joe Brown, and Baby Vasquez.

I'd say that's a bit better than Mercado and his win over Ricardo Nunez.

What about Eastman? You say he's one of Hopkins best MW wins yes? Apart from guys like Tito, Oscar and the other champions like Holmes and Joppy obviously. So, let's compare him to one of the other guys you didn't even mention at all on Hagler's resume and thought insignificant, especially in comparison to someone as good as Eastman for BHop, and who was not one of Hagler's best wins at all either.

Eastman's best wins were; Robert McCracken, Andrew 'Six Heads' Lewis, Evans Ashira and Hacine Cherifi I guess. Pretty good I suppose. No great champion among them or HOFer. Lewis was a WW champ very briefly and Cherifi was a JMW champ briefly too. His record is 46-7 with losses to Kwesi Jones, Wayne Elcock, Arthur Abraham, Edison Miranda, John Duddy (?), Joppy, Hopkins. Lost his world title shots but was an EU title holder.

What about Briscoe? You didn't mention him on Hagler's resume did you? Let's look at his competition first; In his career he fought HOFers, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Emille Griffith, Rodrigo Valdez, Georgie Benton, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Tony Mundine (if you say Echols is a good because he 'hung' with Anthony Mundine, then this is a great win because Briscoe KTFO out of the very fine 45-2 top MW contender and title challenger Tony Mundine), etc etc.

His best win in comparison to McCracken, Lewis or Cherifi? I'd say it was probably Eddie Muhammad (you know, LHW champ, the guy in the amazing wins over HOFer Matthew Saad Muhammad and Marvin Johnson? Great fights those) or George Benton (the guy that beat HOFers like MW champ Joey Giardello, along with HW champ Jimmy Ellis, and Bobby Boyd; you know, that guy who beat HOFer Gene Fullmer who beat that other guy called Ray Robinson? I think he might have been a HOFer) or maybe it was his draws with HOF legends Emile Griffith and Carlos Monzon in fights he should have won? Though, his win over Rafael Gutierrez was pretty good. He was that guy that beat HOFers Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Curtis Cokes, and other greats LC Morgan, Battling Torres etc). Art Hernandez was aother good win. He was the guy that drew with Ray Robinson and beat Denny Moyer. His win over Tony Mundine was good too. Damn, that was a lot of H, O, and F's in there.

What do you think? Does that put a new perspective on just some of those wins? Only two mind you. It's pretty easy to pull out others like that that weren't mentioned on Hagler's resume. As I said, it's somewhat underrated.

Game, set, and match :cool9:

Poet

[r.burgundy]

This'll be a huge post people. But, I'll do a breakdown with ya eh Burgundy? I agree. Lets forget Hearns, Duran, Tito and Oscar. Focus on the MW wins without the big names. Go through them properly. Scientific like eh? I'll throw in some of my own for Hopkins too eh? We'll look at the opponent, but not just the opponent. We'll look at the opponents best wins as well to see how good they really were. In this age of records, it's easy to get confused with someone who has a 40-2 record, but not a single good opponent on it, as being a good fighter when they are in fact just ****e. Anyway....

Hopkins
Champions; Johnson, Brown, Jackson, Holmes, Joppy, Aquino
Contenders; Mercado, Eastman, Echols, Hakkar, Vanderpool, Allen, Lipsey, Powell.

Johnson=weird win but still good. At the time Johnson was not at all formed as a good fighter and would lose nearly every major fight he had for years afterward until maybe Ulrich or Harding five years later. After Hopkins he lost to Sosa, Kiwanuka (?), Ottke, Vanderpool, Branco, Sheika, Harmon, Gonzalez, before winning his title.

Do you recognise these guys as good names? Apart from Joppy, Holmes, Johnson, Brown etc? That's their best wins. I didn't bother listing their losses or worst losses. But, with their best wins over guys like that ie. half decent contenders or, at best, alphabet titlists, a win over Eugene Hart for Hagler is easily as legitimate and better for the most part than all but Holmes, Joppy Johnson etc.[/B]

For example; you list Mercado as a good win in comparison to Hagler's good wins yes? Mercado ended his career at 19-10. Never won a title and his best win was over Ricardo Nunez 50-20, whose best win was Miguel Arroyo. None of them being titlists of any sort. His claim to fame was just fighting Hopkins. He is seen as a decent fighter just because he fought Hopkins.

I see that as pretty pale to someone like Eugene Hart, who you didn't even mention and probably skipped straight past as insignificant, but who fought fighters like Hagler, Briscoe, Antuofermo, Fullmer, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Denny Moyer, Chucho Garcia, Seales etc.

What about Eastman? You say he's one of Hopkins best MW wins yes? Apart from guys like Tito, Oscar and the other champions like Holmes and Joppy obviously. So, let's compare him to one of the other guys you didn't even mention at all on Hagler's resume and thought insignificant, especially in comparison to someone as good as Eastman for BHop, and who was not one of Hagler's best wins at all either.

What about Briscoe? You didn't mention him on Hagler's resume did you? Let's look at his competition first; In his career he fought HOFers, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Emille Griffith, Rodrigo Valdez, Georgie Benton, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad, Tony Mundine (if you say Echols is a good because he 'hung' with Anthony Mundine, then this is a great win because Briscoe KTFO out of the very fine 45-2 top MW contender and title challenger Tony Mundine), etc etc.

What do you think? Does that put a new perspective on just some of those wins? Only two mind you. It's pretty easy to pull out others like that that weren't mentioned on Hagler's resume. As I said, it's somewhat underrated.

that is a huge post lol.its kinda hard to follow cause you dint really list haglers best wins.but i'll use what i posted earlier plus yours and sonnyboys

johnson is a win that got better with time.i have that fight and didnt even put 2 and 2 togther till johnson fought jones.it was a very obscure win and hopkins is still the only man to stop johnson,and glen has been in with the best.and he still fights the exact same style and johnson has been on the wrong side of some terrible decisions.he arguably deserves a win over dawson and his wins over jones,tarver trumps anything done by haglers m.w's

as far as bad bennie,he just wasnt a good fighter,he ducks his head then throws wild bombs.im to young to have seen these guys consistently,but from what i did see,he was an average contender
same with the cyclone hart.vito,whom i dont think was a good fighter,tore him apart,,hagler did the same,why would i count him?mercado i counted cause i actually thought of him as a decent fighter from watching.he was able to compete with hops.
but hart wasnt even comptetitive in his fights against top comp unlike johnson,echols,eastman etc
this can go forever so lets do this.

allen/hamsho hamsho is better
mercado/hart cancel out they both lost every fight after the big 1
brown/briscoe cancel out
echols/sibson echols better
hakkar/seales cancel out
johnson/roldan johnson better
vanderpool/minter cancel out,or minter slightly better
joppy/vito cancel out
jackson/monroe monroe better
eastman/watts eastman better

problem here is you list guys on both sides i dont consider good fighters.i dont consider seales,watts,vanderpool,allen good fighters.ive seen them fight,and they are average contenders.nothing special.ive said repeatedly both of those comp at mw was weak but hopkins won more frequentyly than hagler did,to better competition.i cant by any stretch imagine hopkins drawing with vito,losing to watts and monroe or even ray leonard.

but i can very easily see hagler losing to jones jr,and taylor.see.what im getting at is,i see hopkins beating everybody on haglers resume but i cant see hagler beating everybody on hopkins resume

[BennyST]

that is a huge post lol.its kinda hard to follow cause you dint really list haglers best wins.but i'll use what i posted earlier plus yours and sonnyboys

johnson is a win that got better with time.i have that fight and didnt even put 2 and 2 togther till johnson fought jones.it was a very obscure win and hopkins is still the only man to stop johnson,and glen has been in with the best.and he still fights the exact same style and johnson has been on the wrong side of some terrible decisions.he arguably deserves a win over dawson and his wins over jones,tarver trumps anything done by haglers m.w's

as far as bad bennie,he just wasnt a good fighter,he ducks his head then throws wild bombs.im to young to have seen these guys consistently,but from what i did see,he was an average contender
same with the cyclone hart.vito,whom i dont think was a good fighter,tore him apart,,hagler did the same,why would i count him?mercado i counted cause i actually thought of him as a decent fighter from watching.he was able to compete with hops.
but hart wasnt even comptetitive in his fights against top comp unlike johnson,echols,eastman etc
this can go forever so lets do this.

allen/hamsho hamsho is better
mercado/hart cancel out they both lost every fight after the big 1
brown/briscoe cancel out
echols/sibson echols better
hakkar/seales cancel out
johnson/roldan johnson better
vanderpool/minter cancel out,or minter slightly better
joppy/vito cancel out
jackson/monroe monroe better
eastman/watts eastman better

problem here is you list guys on both sides i dont consider good fighters.i dont consider seales,watts,vanderpool,allen good fighters.ive seen them fight,and they are average contenders.nothing special.ive said repeatedly both of those comp at mw was weak but hopkins won more frequentyly than hagler did,to better competition.i cant by any stretch imagine hopkins drawing with vito,losing to watts and monroe or even ray leonard.

but i can very easily see hagler losing to jones jr,and taylor.see.what im getting at is,i see hopkins beating everybody on haglers resume but i cant see hagler beating everybody on hopkins resume

I know, it was a bit ridiculous.

I will say though, as I mentioned, the one thing Hagler's opponents had over Hopkins' is some big wins. You say Briscoe is average but compared to most of the Hopkins' normal wins at Mw, they don't compare because his opponents never beat anyone of any significance. At least Briscoe beat guys like Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and Georgie Benton and his draws with Monzon and Griffith really should have been wins. That to me is much better than having McCracken or Cherifi as your best win.

Eastman and Watts are about equal except for one massive thing. Watts beat Hagler. That alone puts Watts above Eastman definitely. Maybe you see it differently, but having the Cherifi's, Evans' just doesn't compare to having similar fighters but then Hagler as his big win.

With Mercado, he never actually won a big fight. Ever. He never beat a single good opponent. Hart beat a few very good opponents. That's what my whole post was about. The opponents have one big thing that differentiates them. The guys (like Mercado, Allen, Eastman etc) BHop beat never beat anyone of significance themselves. Hart did lose most of his big fights, like BHop's opponents but he also beat the great fighters Chucho Garcia, Don Fullmer (who was a bloody good fighter; check out his resume, it's amazing) etc. See, those big wins are more than Mercado ever did by simply hanging with BHop.

Fullmer is ten times the fighter Nunez ever could have hoped to be.

Anyway, that last bit, I kind of agree with. Hagler would have struggled with Jones, as anyone would have. Taylor though, no chance he wins against Hagler. Absolutely no chance.

[r.burgundy]

I know, it was a bit ridiculous.

good post though.nice to have a civil debate

[$Full Clip$]

I might give Hopkins the slight edge in the overall ranking especially if he beats Pascal then it'd most definitely be justified. I think it's pretty just to say Hagler's the safe bet for the better middleweight ranking. Maybe if he could get back down to 160 and take out Williams and Sergio it might change but highly unlikely.

[Jaffay]

Hagler is #2 MW behind Monzon for me and top 25 fighter P4P. Hopkins is around 10 at MW and should be top 40 P4P

[Toney616]

You got to remember something about rburgundy: If a fighter fought the majority of his career prior to the year 2000 then by his definition they "aren't very good" :rolleyes9:

Poet

lmao