Is Ray Robinson's speed overstated?

[Holtol]

True. This is most notable in his jabbing. Usually more reminiscent of the way a Jose Napoles would throw the jab than a Thomas Hearns. He used it to set up his other punches most of the time.

This is why I feel Jim Jacobs's measurement of the speed between the jabs of Ali and Robinson, while interesting, is somewhat flawed. Robinson's true speed wasn't in his jabs, but his combinations. Also it should be a comparison of post-comeback Ali and a 30+ year old Robinson to make it level.

Im sure if Robinson wanted to throw 10 fast punches he would be as fast as anyone. But he would change the speed or rhythem of his punches.

Like a good pitcher will not just use the fast ball.

[AntonTheMeh]

please show me an instance where he was made out to be this "speed demon". he was fast. no one called him the fastest.

[Sugarj]

he knew there was no hope of him stopping Hagler or Duran,

IN other words he knew while he could not even hurt two persons who had good chins...I am sorry friend but unlike you I believe any one can be knocked out, and Leonard did not fight like this only with these two.

My dear Friend, La Donde was not at his peak weight, he had to be weight drained to fight Leonard. And id you see his weights for other fights it does seem going down to 168 should affect him. Anyways I never said Leonard was a bad puncher, he was a good puncher kind a like Ali where the power is solid but nothing exceptional. Leonard, whatever way you put it is never an ATG puncher...

What else...Oh yes about Hearns, while Hearns is an ATG great P4P but at middle weight he did not take a great punch. Yes Leonard did punish him badly but point is could he finish him off. If Ray had Hearns hurt like Leonard did I will be betting my bottom dollar that Hearns will be knocked out. Leonard never came closing to hurt Hagler or even Duran (Both had exceptional chins granted ) , but in his fights with these two I never even saw him once stun either of them seriously. Punishing some one does not equal to KO power. Rather when you have a person hurt and cant knock him out, it doesnt ring good for your KO power. Put Hearns against Hagler, Monzoon, Sugar Ray or Fitz (True KO artists), Hearns does not see round 12.

Hi mate,

True, Leonard got on his toes in other fights, he was very fleet footed in the Olympics and this really surfaced again for Duran 2. He also started the first Tommy Hearns fight dancing......only to finish ruthlessly! But to be honest 1977-1980 were not the most twinkle toed years of his career at all, he was pretty aggressive really.

Leonard was clever enough, he knew that up at middleweight (first time too) he would not really have carried enough power to KO Hagler and again at supermiddle knocking out Duran would have been a tough ask. I dont blame him for not fighting these fights in the manner that he fought in the late 70s. It would be suicide in Hagler's case.....so we'll have to disagree there.

I'm aware of the Lalonde history. I cited the example because you did say 'was he anything like that or even tried to play the role of one later on towards his last great victories' in respect of being a KO artist late on in his career. Irrespective of Lalonde's weight making issues, this fight and the second Hearns fight demonstrate that he could still be a ruthless puncher. Agreed, not an ATG puncher though, but certainly a KO artist at times.

As for Hearns, I've never argued that Leonard was quite in Robinson's league as a finisher......and yes I think that Robinson would likely stop Hearns if he hurt him badly. That said Ray Leonard's power was enough to stop Hearns first time round and I've got a feeling that if fight 2 was set for 15 rounds this could have happened again. Tommy looked pretty wrecked at the end of the 12th. But any Leonard fan knows, his knockout power was really at welterweight, hell he knocked the solid chinned Benitez down with a jab and near as dammit rendered poor Dave Green unconscious! Some fighters carry their power up in weight better than others (like Hearns).

Other decent punchers/KO artists at welterweight had less KO success at middleweight.......no real reflection on their ability. Oscar De La Hoya and Felix Trinidad jump to mind.

Were both obviously fans of these guys. No doubt Robinson is the superior Sugar Ray though. I just think that Leonard was rather more of a KO artist than you initially gave him credit for.

[them_apples]

Now let me say this first. Robinson was a fantastic fighter. Incredible power and general offensive awareness and capable of some pretty cool looking defensive moves, even if he was there to be hit more often than he should have been. But I was watching him fight Basilio (I'm not sure if it's 1 or 2, the file I downloaded didn't say) and he looked quick, but I all I could do was list off fighters who were definitely faster. Now I think that Robinson had aged by that point, but those fights are the highest quality I could find and it's hard to accurately gauge speed when the film has a tendency to speed up and slow down. So was Robinson really as fast as everyone said and if you think so, could you show me a clip of him when he was really on fire?

he was about a quick as shane at 37.

There are def quicker boxers than him though. Better to imo. I think Leonard and Hearns would have both beat him at WW. His style was great vs brawlers much like Shanes style has been for the last 5 years (aka setting up huge hooks with little jabs) but put him in with a good boxer and I think he loses.

[AntonTheMeh]

he was about a quick as shane at 37.

There are def quicker boxers than him though. Better to imo. I think Leonard and Hearns would have both beat him at WW. His style was great vs brawlers much like Shanes style has been for the last 5 years (aka setting up huge hooks with little jabs) but put him in with a good boxer and I think he loses.

you are out of your mind. with hearn's **** chin? he'd be lucky to make it past the 8th. all hearns had was an inch in height.

leonard? leonard was a smaller robinson with a lesser jab. robinson would not have problems with either. at all.

[JDezi4]

We wasn't as fast as a lot of guys of whom's speed u would comment on, but he damn sure wasn't slow.

[Greatest1942]

Hi mate,

True, Leonard got on his toes in other fights, he was very fleet footed in the Olympics and this really surfaced again for Duran 2. He also started the first Tommy Hearns fight dancing......only to finish ruthlessly! But to be honest 1977-1980 were not the most twinkle toed years of his career at all, he was pretty aggressive really.

Leonard was clever enough, he knew that up at middleweight (first time too) he would not really have carried enough power to KO Hagler and again at supermiddle knocking out Duran would have been a tough ask. I dont blame him for not fighting these fights in the manner that he fought in the late 70s. It would be suicide in Hagler's case.....so we'll have to disagree there.

I'm aware of the Lalonde history. I cited the example because you did say 'was he anything like that or even tried to play the role of one later on towards his last great victories' in respect of being a KO artist late on in his career. Irrespective of Lalonde's weight making issues, this fight and the second Hearns fight demonstrate that he could still be a ruthless puncher. Agreed, not an ATG puncher though, but certainly a KO artist at times.

As for Hearns, I've never argued that Leonard was quite in Robinson's league as a finisher......and yes I think that Robinson would likely stop Hearns if he hurt him badly. That said Ray Leonard's power was enough to stop Hearns first time round and I've got a feeling that if fight 2 was set for 15 rounds this could have happened again. Tommy looked pretty wrecked at the end of the 12th. But any Leonard fan knows, his knockout power was really at welterweight, hell he knocked the solid chinned Benitez down with a jab and near as dammit rendered poor Dave Green unconscious! Some fighters carry their power up in weight better than others (like Hearns).

Other decent punchers/KO artists at welterweight had less KO success at middleweight.......no real reflection on their ability. Oscar De La Hoya and Felix Trinidad jump to mind.

Were both obviously fans of these guys. No doubt Robinson is the superior Sugar Ray though. I just think that Leonard was rather more of a KO artist than you initially gave him credit for.

I got into this arguement with you, because of some one putting Leonard as a better puncher than Ray.
1)I believe KO artists have a mindset, Leonard was clever but he did leave that mindset at home, when he fought some of his more important fights.

2)Well, Leonard never even at Welter carried the stop dead power...He had KO ability but against the best he rarelt had one

3) He attacked LaDonda and Hearns yes, but after hurting them and then becoming the aggressor. Starting the fight as an aggressor and finishing it was never his cup of tea( I meant this from the beginning , but if my comments mislead you I am sorry).

Someother day we will argue about this further, cheers about the good debate.

[Greatest1942]

he was about a quick as shane at 37.

There are def quicker boxers than him though. Better to imo. I think Leonard and Hearns would have both beat him at WW. His style was great vs brawlers much like Shanes style has been for the last 5 years (aka setting up huge hooks with little jabs) but put him in with a good boxer and I think he loses.

Quicker yes better ???

Leonard beating Sugar Ray at Welter is a bit of far fecthed you know. How? KNocking him out? Sugar Ray had a great chin ,soory in 200 fights he was never stopped okay?
Outpointing him ?
Lets see :-
They both had good jabs. Left hook sorry Robinson had a far better one,righthand again no contest RObinson. Speed they are equal... Please look at Leonard at 35+ and tell me if he was faster than ray at that age. Ray was quicker at that age and by common sense he was quicker whan they were younger. If they fought toe to toe Leonard will be outpunched, he never could could with Robinson in toe to toe fight. He will not run like he did from Hagler and win from Ray. Ray will catch him. So either way I dont see him outpointing Ray. From what I have seen of both of them at middle Leonard gets whooped by Ray bigtime.

Secondly Hearns never had the chin to fight Ray. Ray carried middle weight power far more than Leonard . He might outpoint Ray early on,may be even drop him but Ray catches him with a combo and stops him.He was just plain more skilled than Hearns, had a better chin, hit almost as hard, was arguably just as quick with his hands (and better on his feet IMO). Ray stopped Gene Fullmer with one punch again a guy who I will favour over Hearns (at middle weight as I will Carmen Basillo). Hearns had a great right hand but in combinations Ray threw better punches. Robinson was no Pipino Cuevas or Duran(who had a great chin at lightweight but wasnt that great at middle, kind of like arguing if Hagler could take Foreman's punches).Somewhere he will sneak in a counter and then he was too good a finisher to let Hearns of the hook. I dont see anybody going 12-15 rounds with Robinson and not getting tagged. With Hearns chin it will be difficult to survive.

Robinson was tougher than Leonard, hit harder , was a better finisher and was faster than him...There were fighters who were faster than Ray(Jones), hit harder than Ray(Hearns may be) had a better chin(Lamotta, Hagler) but no one combined all of them in a single package like he did...Personally Ray was never my favourite, but he was and still is the best I saw.

[Greatest1942]

Quicker yes better ???

Leonard beating Sugar Ray at Welter is a bit of far fecthed you know. How? KNocking him out? Sugar Ray had a great chin ,soory in 200 fights he was never stopped okay?
Outpointing him ?
Lets see :-
They both had good jabs. Left hook sorry Robinson had a far better one,righthand again no contest RObinson. Speed they are equal... Please look at Leonard at 35+ and tell me if he was faster than ray at that age. Ray was quicker at that age and by common sense he was quicker whan they were younger. If they fought toe to toe Leonard will be outpunched, he never could could with Robinson in toe to toe fight. He will not run like he did from Hagler and win from Ray. Ray will catch him. So either way I dont see him outpointing Ray. From what I have seen of both of them at middle Leonard gets whooped by Ray bigtime.

Secondly Hearns never had the chin to fight Ray. Ray carried middle weight power far more than Leonard . He might outpoint Ray early on,may be even drop him but Ray catches him with a combo and stops him.He was just plain more skilled than Hearns, had a better chin, hit almost as hard, was arguably just as quick with his hands (and better on his feet IMO). Ray stopped Gene Fullmer with one punch again a guy who I will favour over Hearns (at middle weight as I will Carmen Basillo). Hearns had a great right hand but in combinations Ray threw better punches. Robinson was no Pipino Cuevas or Duran(who had a great chin at lightweight but wasnt that great at middle, kind of like arguing if Hagler could take Foreman's punches).Somewhere he will sneak in a counter and then he was too good a finisher to let Hearns of the hook. I dont see anybody going 12-15 rounds with Robinson and not getting tagged. With Hearns chin it will be difficult to survive.

Robinson was tougher than Leonard, hit harder , was a better finisher and was faster than him...There were fighters who were faster than Ray(Jones), hit harder than Ray(Hearns may be) had a better chin(Lamotta, Hagler) but no one combined all of them in a single package like he did...Personally Ray was never my favourite, but he was and still is the best I saw.

P.S:- Gene Fullmer inspite of never learning proper defense (it is not that he was entirely crude) was never ever again knocked out ever in his career.

[Greatest1942]

he was about a quick as shane at 37.

There are def quicker boxers than him though. Better to imo. I think Leonard and Hearns would have both beat him at WW. His style was great vs brawlers much like Shanes style has been for the last 5 years (aka setting up huge hooks with little jabs) but put him in with a good boxer and I think he loses.

of the 200 fighters Robinson faced , no one was a good boxer, man you re right!!!!!!