Louis's 'bum of the month' club...

[BigStereotype]

Put who you want, but so far you have showed me nothing. How about a breakdown of where the ring had these fighters rated at the time they fought the respective men you have put up? Fact is only Ali fought a better resume as far as champions go.

You were being nice by putting Langford up?" Lol, thats a hoot coming from someone who was just criticizing my reading comprehension!

I'd say Holy has a better resume, but beyond that, nobody jumps to mind.

[JAB5239]

I'd say Holy has a better resume, but beyond that, nobody jumps to mind.

I would say thats pretty fair.

[r.burgundy]

Wladimir has actually only beaten 10 top 10 fighters, and the only top 5 guys he beat so far are Chagaev and Byrd. not that its bad, but Louis is a little ahead.

also, a big problem with Wladimir is that he never will fight the other best fighter in his division(his brother). Louis fought the #1 contender multiple times.

there is a huge myth around this whole 'there are huge guys in todays division' thing. Other than the Klitschko brothers and Valuev(who should have lost to 45+ year old Holyfield), who exactly are these huge guys? In fact, in the top 5 there is a Cruiserweight and a Light Heavyweight.
who are the other guys? Chambers, Povetkin, and Boytsov could all be Cruiserweights if they lost weight. Especially Chambers.

whats funny is that in reality Louis beat the bigger men compared to Wladimir. when I say that I mean top guys, btw

Wlad's best wins compared to Louis'(only in size):
Byrd is smaller than Max Baer
Chagaev is smaller than Buddy Baer
Ibragimov is smaller or same size as Walcott
Chambers is smaller or same size as Schmeling
Peter is as big as Abe Simon
Carnera is bigger than anyone Wladimir beat

i would compare abe simon to sanders as opposed to peter
buddy baer to tony thompson.baer has slight edge in height
ibraghimov is much bigger than walcott
byrd and schmelling are close,but peter is much bigger than schmelling
canerra is not bigger than mccline by any strecth of the imagination,nor is he bigger than derrick jefferson and he has 1 " on ray austin

yes,but the frequency of todays fights must also be factored in.guys just dont fight as often,so 10 top 10 guys is a ridiculous amount,especially in comparison to the other division champs.plus also factoring in that the other top 3 contenders,haye,valuev,povetkin,wont give either brother a fight

when speaking of the size of fighters,im not just speaking on klitscho opponents per se,im speaking on contenders as a whole.also a guy doesnt have to be 6'5 to be huge.take arreola,rahman,and sam peter.these guys are huge and athletic unlike the clumsier big guys of back then.abe simon being a prime example of clumsy.these guys have an average height 6'3 and weight of 230 lbs and are athletic.and athleticin this case means,can move and keep up a good punch output.but lets look at the some of the guys of this era
jameel mcline 6'8 270
lennox lewis 6'5 250
davaryl williamson 6'4 220
sergei liakhovic 6'4 240
shannon briggs 6'4 250
tony thompson 6'5 240
chazz witherspoon 6'4 230
kevin johnson 6'3 240
dimentrenko 6'7 250
ray austin 6'6 245

joe louis last 17 fights average out to about 6' and that is heavily skewered by baer and simon
marciano 5'10
bivins 5'9
brion 6'2
savold 6
walker 6'2
beshore 5'9
charles 6
skhor 6'4
walcott 6
mauriello 5'11
simon 6'4
conn 6'1
baer 6'6
nova 6'2
musto 5'7
mccoy 5'11
burman 5'11

chambers,povetkin.and boysov would all also have been big heavys back in louis day,and would damn sure punch alot more fluidly than those guys

[Steak]

i would compare abe simon to sanders as opposed to peter
buddy baer to tony thompson.baer has slight edge in height
ibraghimov is much bigger than walcott
byrd and schmelling are close,but peter is much bigger than schmelling
canerra is not bigger than mccline by any strecth of the imagination,nor is he bigger than derrick jefferson and he has 1 " on ray austin

Im only comparing guys they beat: Wlad lost to Sanders
besides, Simon and Peter are similiar builds. Ill maintain that Simon is about the size of Peter
Baer=Tony is fair
Ibragimov is not bigger than Walcott, imo. He may have weighed more, but that was mostly due to him having extra fat. Walcott was a pretty damn stocky guy, he just kept himself in very good, lean shape. Ill go ahead and say theyre about even uf you want.
Schmeling is bigger than Byrd, who himself said multiple times he had to eat his way to Heavyweight
Carnera is bigger than any top ten fighter Wladimir beat. When Wlad beat McCline, McCline was not top ten in the division. Austin and Jefferson certainly werent either. Im doing the top ten thing because it could be misleading...I mean, if someone beat a 7'2 Julius Long...I mean cmon, that doesnt mean much. Although McCline was a decent fighter, so Ill go ahead with you and say that McCline=Carnera.

yes,but the frequency of todays fights must also be factored in.guys just dont fight as often,so 10 top 10 guys is a ridiculous amount,especially in comparison to the other division champs.plus also factoring in that the other top 3 contenders,haye,valuev,povetkin,wont give either brother a fight

Im not saying its fair, but you simply cant give a fighter credit for beating someone he didnt, can you?

Heres an important point: You also have to take into account that Louis was actually out of boxing for about 4 years(between 1942 and 1946) because he joined the army. He only had one fight against a nobody during this period. sort of evens things up, doesnt it?

when speaking of the size of fighters,im not just speaking on klitscho opponents per se,im speaking on contenders as a whole.also a guy doesnt have to be 6'5 to be huge.take arreola,rahman,and sam peter.these guys are huge and athletic unlike the clumsier big guys of back then.abe simon being a prime example of clumsy.these guys have an average height 6'3 and weight of 230 lbs and are athletic.and athleticin this case means,can move and keep up a good punch output.but lets look at the some of the guys of this era
jameel mcline 6'8 270
lennox lewis 6'5 250
davaryl williamson 6'4 220
sergei liakhovic 6'4 240
shannon briggs 6'4 250
tony thompson 6'5 240
chazz witherspoon 6'4 230
kevin johnson 6'3 240
dimentrenko 6'7 250
ray austin 6'6 245

joe louis last 17 fights average out to about 6' and that is heavily skewered by baer and simon
marciano 5'10
bivins 5'9
brion 6'2
savold 6
walker 6'2
beshore 5'9
charles 6
skhor 6'4
walcott 6
mauriello 5'11
simon 6'4
conn 6'1
baer 6'6
nova 6'2
musto 5'7
mccoy 5'11
burman 5'11

chambers,povetkin.and boysov would all also have been big heavys back in louis day,and would damn sure punch alot more fluidly than those guys

most the guys you just mentioned had a lot of fat on them. The HWs in the 60s were, for the most part, extremely lean and in shape. They didnt have the kind of fat on them that Ibragimov, Povetkin, or Chambers did.

Sam Peter certainly doesnt look very coordinated to me(not more so than the HWs back then) and Arreola getting tattooed by that smaller Quezada guy not too long back reaffirms to me that is skills arent all that either.

a lot of the big guys you named also were never at the top of the division, I bolded them. the guys that have stuck around at the top of the division in the last 5 years are actually smaller ones like Ibragimov, Chagaev, Chris Byrd, James Toney, Povetkin, Adamek, Haye and Juan Carlos Gomez. although to be fair to you, some naturally bigger guys like Liakhovich, Valuev, Maskaev and Sam Peter have also stuck around at the top the division for a while too.

oh yea and I dont mean to nitpick, but I find it pretty impossible that McCline is 6'8, when Ive always read he was 6'51/2 or 6'6, plus the fact that he looked pretty much the same height as Wladimir when they fought.

[r.burgundy]

Im only comparing guys they beat: Wlad lost to Sanders
besides, Simon and Peter are similiar builds. Ill maintain that Simon is about the size of Peter
Baer=Tony is fair
Ibragimov is not bigger than Walcott, imo. He may have weighed more, but that was mostly due to him having extra fat. Walcott was a pretty damn stocky guy, he just kept himself in very good, lean shape. Ill go ahead and say theyre about even uf you want.
Schmeling is bigger than Byrd, who himself said multiple times he had to eat his way to Heavyweight
Carnera is bigger than any top ten fighter Wladimir beat. When Wlad beat McCline, McCline was not top ten in the division. Austin and Jefferson certainly werent either. Im doing the top ten thing because it could be misleading...I mean, if someone beat a 7'2 Julius Long...I mean cmon, that doesnt mean much. Although McCline was a decent fighter, so Ill go ahead with you and say that McCline=Carnera.
Im not saying its fair, but you simply cant give a fighter credit for beating someone he didnt, can you?

Heres an important point: You also have to take into account that Louis was actually out of boxing for about 4 years(between 1942 and 1946) because he joined the army. He only had one fight against a nobody during this period. sort of evens things up, doesnt it?
most the guys you just mentioned had a lot of fat on them. The HWs in the 60s were, for the most part, extremely lean and in shape. They didnt have the kind of fat on them that Ibragimov, Povetkin, or Chambers did.

Sam Peter certainly doesnt look very coordinated to me(not more so than the HWs back then) and Arreola getting tattooed by that smaller Quezada guy not too long back reaffirms to me that is skills arent all that either.

a lot of the big guys you named also were never at the top of the division, I bolded them. the guys that have stuck around at the top of the division in the last 5 years are actually smaller ones like Ibragimov, Chagaev, Chris Byrd, James Toney, Povetkin, Adamek, Haye and Juan Carlos Gomez. although to be fair to you, some naturally bigger guys like Liakhovich, Valuev, Maskaev and Sam Peter have also stuck around at the top the division for a while too.

oh yea and I dont mean to nitpick, but I find it pretty impossible that McCline is 6'8, when Ive always read he was 6'51/2 or 6'6, plus the fact that he looked pretty much the same height as Wladimir when they fought.

ahh.ok
but still sultan is 6'2 220 while walcott is 6' 190.thats a big difference
mccline was 28-2 and on a 20+ win streak.how on earth is was not in anybody's top 10?or do you mean ring top 10?
ray austin certainly was top 10.ibf mandatory if im not mistaken
i was just pointing out sizes cause you asked who are all these so-called giants in the division.these guys are huge compared to yester year guys

not exactly,because louis fought just everybody multiple times.he ran out of guys to fight.its not like mike tyson came and went in that time he was gone

yes guys today have more fat,but if you look at physiques of fighters back then,aint like these guys were ken norton status.they are just as flabby.hell look at joe louis.he's not a physical specimen.hes bout the same as byrd or chambers

sam is a helluva lot more coordinated than abe simon.sam has good balance,and can take a good shot,while simons balance and overall punch output is terrible.him vs louis looks like a slapstick comedy.look at sam against wlad,and against peter and you can see he is actually mobile unlike simon

in fairness,the smaller guys are more recent than the guys like briggs,mccline and liakhovich

i coulda swore he measured at 6'8 for his fight with peter.boxrec has him at 6'6 so i couldve been mistaken.either way,that dude is huge

nice to debate and be able to keep it civil!civility is a foreign concept fir these supposed intellectuals around here

[Spartacus Sully]

yes guys today have more fat,but if you look at physiques of fighters back then,aint like these guys were ken norton status.they are just as flabby.hell look at joe louis.he's not a physical specimen.hes bout the same as byrd or chambers

Really?









there is not a single fighter ever that has had a back that proportionately large.

[r.burgundy]

Really?





there is not a single fighter ever that has had a back that proportionately large.

lmao.dude these are some specimen





not this


joe was very average physically.just like chambers and povetkin

[Spartacus Sully]

lmao.dude these are some specimen



[IMG]http://www.celebritynewsbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09
/evander-holyfield.jpg[/IMG]

not this


joe was very average physically.just like chambers and povetkin

obliviously you have no idea what muscles are used in boxing, other wise you would be incredibly impressed by the lack of a restricting chest the straightness of the minor pect muscles in their attachment to the shoulder, the incredible definition in the serrates anterior and the large shoulders.

you would also notice the large rounding under the armpits of norton indicating worthless pectoral major muscles restricting the speed and endurance of the the pectoral minor muscles. then thers the lack of any definiton in the serratus anterior. finally theres the completly diffrent pose with the hands at the waist just so he can make his back and shoulders look bigger.

Try and find a pick of norton with his hands over his head like the louis one, wont.

and the holy field, same situation. chest way too big restricting rotation in the shoulder and pronation of the sternum making for weak feather fisted punches. plus hes got a small back relative to the rest of his body and biceps that are way too big.

you want something like this:


or this


not holyfield or norton.

[BennyST]

lmao.dude these are some specimen





not this


joe was very average physically.just like chambers and povetkin

Those guys are chubby. Louis was very lean, trim, no extra fat at all. You don't need muscles coming out of your eyebrows to be incredibly strong, fast, good at boxing. Extra fat though doesn't help a ****ing thing and just makes you slower, tire quicker, pointlessly heavier which is what most of the guys today are....pointlessly heavy.

Their extra weight means nothing and has absolutely no use whatsoever to them. In fact, not only does it have no use, it hinders them greatly by slowing them down, tiring them out and making everything they do harder.

[-CANE-]

If I had to choose I'd take Louis' physique over Norton and Holyfield everytime.