Was Larry Holmes's HW Era ''Weak''?

[Greatest1942]

Like I said earlier Patterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis all fought better opposition than Louis ever did.

If you want to have a deluded opinion of Louis suit yourself. His challenger were bums of the month whether they were ranked or not does not matter because their quality isnt that good.

Theres a reason why the 60/70s and 90s are known as great heavyweight eras because they contained great fighters.

Suit yoursself and keep posting like I said

[BattlingNelson]

Bat since you picked guys like MorrisonCooney,Mercer,Firpo in your list I will ask you to take a look at these fighters from the 1940's

Elmer Ray 6’2”, 194-Holds the longest winning streak in heavyweight history winning 50 fights in a row during the decade. The two big names during the stretch were Lee Savold and Jersey Joe Walcott. Another big name that fell to Ray was Charles in a questionable decision in 1947. Charles won the rematch. During the decade Ray lost to Turkey Thompson, Charles, Walcott, Kid Rivera and John Holman. (74-6-1) .Only person who Louis allegedly ducked..Moot point though since he was busted up thrice in exhibitions by Louis.In my opinion, Ray's exceptional record during his peak years and wins over two champions-to-be who were at or near their own peaks distinguish him as one of the best contenders in the history of the division never to win the title.He was also #44 in Rings list of 100 best punchers.

Joey Maxim 6’1”, 182-Maxim defeated Jersey Joe Walcott, Pat Valentino, Bob Satterfield, Jimmy Bivins, and Gus Lesnevich. His losses were to Jersey Joe Walcott(2), Joe Kahut and Ezzard Charles. (67-16-4) .Looks a solid resume aint it?Not a genuine heavy but more of a light heavy. defeated Patterson when he was very green towards the end of his career. I didn't need to bring Maxim in , but a lot of light heavy of other eras are counted too except 1970's and 1990's. Moorer was he a true heavy? With modern supplements I hold that Maxim will be as big as Moorer atleast.

Bob Pastor 6’0”, 183- Pastors big claim to fame was his two fights with Joe Louis in 1937 and 1939. The first of the two he lost a close decision and the second he lost in the 11th round by KO. By the 1940s he was on the tail end of his career. He has two victories over Turkey Thompson and defeated Gus Lesnevich and split with Jimmy Bivins and fought a draw with Tami Mauriello. He only lost twice in the decade and that was to Billy Conn and Bivins. (14-2-1)

Lee Q. Murray 6’3”, 210- Murray defeated Curtis Sheppard(4), Turkey Thompson, Jimmy Bivins(2), his losses included Curtis Sheppard(2), Jimmy Bivins(3), Jersey Joe Walcott, Turkey Thompson. He was the number 3 ranked heavyweight in the world in 1943 and 1947. (53-17-1) .Big guy too you know. And a terrific hitter.A very good boxer-puncher who Curtis Shephard thought could have been in champion in other eras...very underrated and forgotten.

Turkey Thompson 5’8”,203- Thompson was the last fighter to defeat Elmer Ray before he went on his 50 fight win streak.KO in 1 believe me. Other wins included Pat Valentino, Perk Daniels, Arthuro Godoy and Lee Q. Murray. His losses were to Bob Pastor(2), Pat Valentino(2), Perk Daniels, Lee Q. Murray, Al Hart and Jimmy Bivins. (40-8-2) He was like the David Tua of that era...if today someone knocks out Valuev, you will say he is a great puncher aint it.With a different ref, he also scores a 1 round knockout win against Bob Pastor(having knocked him down 6 times in the first round). He also knocked out a bunch of men who were either at the time/once were Ring Magazine top 10 including Elmer Ray, Lee Q Murray, Eddie Blunt, Gus Dorazio, Johnny Haynes, Al Hart, Pat Valentino. Thompson even knocked out a 7'2 300lb Big Ben Moroz, whom sported a 15" height advantage on Thompson!!

Lee Savold 6’0”, 195- A very active fighter during the decade Savold defeated his share of top heavyweights; Lou Nova(2), Johnny Flynn, Tony Musto, Lem Fanklin(2), Joe Baksi, Gus Dorazio and Buddy Walker. His losses were many also, Harry Bbo(2), Tony Musto, Tami Mauriello(2), Jimmy Bivins, Joe Baksi(2), Elmer Ray and Phil Muscato(2).(51-17-3). Fought Louis in the 50's when both were kind of shot...Louis knocked him out..his last KO.

Joe Baksi 6’1”, 210 (#1 Contender 1944, 1945) 60-9-3 (bad is it?) Notable Wins: 8
Tami Mauriello, Lee Savold, Gunnar Barlund, Lou Nova, Freddie Schott, Freddie Mills, Bruce Wood****, Olle Tandberg.The fighter who GJC uses in his profile pic.

Tami Mauriello 5’11 ½”, 198 :- 82-13-1. Beat Gunnar Barlund(2), Tony Musto(2), Red Burman, Lee Savold(2), Lou Nova(2), Lee Oma(2), Bruce Wood****.

You include Shavers,Lyle and they were good great punchers who beat some of the best of their era and got beat by the best too (they are good picks though). What was Shavers except his murderous punch power. Was he very great...Well you can take a look at this guy Curtis Shepard. Knocked out Maxim(Maxim had a good chin) in one round and Archie Moore was adamant that he was the hardest puncher he faced. What was Thompson? If you saw him today KO 300 pound giant you would have him in your list ain't it. Put Thompson in 1990 and he gets more accolades than Morrison ever did IMO. Just take a look again at Lem Franklin.His heavyweight run from 1939-1941 is one of the greatest untold stories in history. Franklin literally cleaned up the division, beating almost every contender in sight by knockout to earn a # 2 ranking. Franklin went 19-0 with 17 knockouts during this period. Not quite average eh?

Franklin during this 3 year period knocked out the following men who were/at one time Ring Magazine top 10....Lee Savold, Perk Daniels, Willie Reddish, Eddie Blunt, Jimmy Bivins, Curtis Sheppard, Tony Musto, Abe Simon. How's that sounds similar to some stories you hear every now and then ?? Note he wasn't beating these men by decision, he knocked all of them out!! A bit of TV showing those highlights and ......


Besides the fact that two great Light heavy's Archie Moore and Billy Conn regularly fought heavyweights and campaigned as heavyweights often. Had Conn beaten Louis , I daresay he would have been picked by you as well as a lot of others like Michael Spinks is every time 80's come into play.

Looking at these fighters it further illuminates the point I was trying to make to you Bat that in those days there was a greater no of talent pool , the guys were every experienced and fought each other regularly just look at their number of fights vs Snipes when he fought Holmes. I hope you will agree with me when I say that :
Its harder to be top 10 amongst 1000 than to be among 400. The number of fighters in 1950's were greater than in 1980's,1990's or now...But who cares? Between you and me if these guys, which I mention came after the television era we would have them ranked much higher....Louis held the title for so long these guys never got a chance to it...They had no alphabet belts to win like today, which would have helped them too as the champion was fighting #1, #2 etc (who on their hand went through these guys to become #1 or #2,aint it ? so it helps you get a better idea of their level I hope ). Elmer Ray would have been a phenomenon on tele as would have been Murray.Maybe if they lived in Patterson's era they could have won the belt and been on the list just like Johannson is.Louis could have lost to Conn and made him an ATG great as Spinks is.Cooney,Morrison,MERCER,Witherspoon,Dokes,Tucker ,Weaver do not actually ace these guys , still whatever....

I doubt that there was that many active fighters in the forties due to WWII, still I definetely agree that it's obviously harder to be top ten among 400 than among 4,000. All things equal.

I wonder however, that if you went through the records of those fighters from the forties you mention, I suspect you'll find several losses that great challengers shouldn't have?



As far as Spinks/Conn is concerned I mentioned Spinks because he had a significant impact on the division and was the linear champ. Conn cannot match up.


Nice post you made again BTW.

[GJC]

Joe Baksi 6’1”, 210 (#1 Contender 1944, 1945) 60-9-3 (bad is it?) Notable Wins: 8
Tami Mauriello, Lee Savold, Gunnar Barlund, Lou Nova, Freddie Schott, Freddie Mills, Bruce Wood****, Olle Tandberg.

Finally!!!

People forget that Walcott relaunched his career by beating Baksi when he was the betting underdog. Walcott also got his shot against Louis because Baksi decided to pick up some pocket money in Sweden on his way back from Europe and got robbed against Tandberg.
Tough guy Baksi and as dumb as a rock, Joe Louis people were begging him to fight Louis but good old Joe knew best lol.
Will write a piece on Baksi after i've had a little M.O.T.

[Greatest1942]

I doubt that there was that many active fighters in the forties due to WWII, still I definetely agree that it's obviously harder to be top ten among 400 than among 4,000. All things equal.

I wonder however, that if you went through the records of those fighters from the forties you mention, I suspect you'll find several losses that great challengers shouldn't have?



As far as Spinks/Conn is concerned I mentioned Spinks because he had a significant impact on the division and was the linear champ. Conn cannot match up.


Nice post you made again BTW.

Yes they had losses. But look at todays division? Who is the best heavyweight today? Wladimir? Why he has fought most often and more frequently. Those guys were atleast thrice as active ,not only fighting as many times as 4-7 times a year but were often thrown into the wolves quicker , than todays guys. Still you will find that Wladmir has the most KO losses and most losses of all the "Great" heavies of today. Put Wladimir in that era where he has to fight lots of fighters a year withoout much protection and you will see what happens to him, bearing in mind he does have some losses , as Lennox Lewis had, which as great fighters they shouldn't have right?

[Greatest1942]

I doubt that there was that many active fighters in the forties due to WWII, still I definetely agree that it's obviously harder to be top ten among 400 than among 4,000. All things equal.

I wonder however, that if you went through the records of those fighters from the forties you mention, I suspect you'll find several losses that great challengers shouldn't have?



As far as Spinks/Conn is concerned I mentioned Spinks because he had a significant impact on the division and was the linear champ. Conn cannot match up.


Nice post you made again BTW.

The number of fights Conn had at Heavy along with Maxim > Spinks. Spinks beat Holmes at the *** end of his career, won a disputed decision the second time and got blown away by Tyson. What significant thing he achieved at heavy other than becoming champ? He did more than Conn, but as I told if Conn did beat Louis you would pick him too, because otherwise I don't see their work so far apart.Louis could have got beat and allowed his oppoenents a greater pedestal, he didn't, unlike Larry. And one more thing that I didn't mention in the other post those contenders had a lot of losses due to circumstances that you wouldn't imagine in 80's or 90's. Walcott took a fight with Simon on a short day's notice, after being unfed for days.Got KO'd. I will ask do you hold these against him or many of the heavies who actually faced such circumstances.

These guys got paid much less than Tony Tucker leave aside Holmes et al and often had to fight far after their primes when they were truly past it. Holmes and Foreman were exceptions but in genral age is not kind to heavys. don't believe me? Ask Tyson, Holy what happens when you keep fighting past your prime.

On your question of fighters, just take a look at the number of boxing clubs available today vs 1930-40. You will get your answer.

[Greatest1942]

Finally!!!

People forget that Walcott relaunched his career by beating Baksi when he was the betting underdog. Walcott also got his shot against Louis because Baksi decided to pick up some pocket money in Sweden on his way back from Europe and got robbed against Tandberg.
Tough guy Baksi and as dumb as a rock, Joe Louis people were begging him to fight Louis but good old Joe knew best lol.
Will write a piece on Baksi after i've had a little M.O.T.

When asked by people to fight Louis, Baksi replied that he could not as he would be going to Europe to spend his vacation there as he had promised. Came back and got beat by Walcott and lost some fights. Super tough guy, pig headed like you said and a good person.