Was Larry Holmes's HW Era ''Weak''?

[BattlingNelson]

Bat, the percentages I gave are of Louis's title reign you know. And as I said only Ali fought better competition statistically. I will take that vs your opinion. But ultimately this is my opinion. See ranked contenders are no bums, in those days there was a larger talent pool than there was ever for Tyson. and larger the talent pool the better the athlete, right? There were more fighters then than in 1970 leave aside today. I hope you can appreciate that being ranked top 10 out of 1000 is a bit harder than ranking top 10 out of 400.

Billiy Con was a ATG light Heavy. Max Schelling is a very good boxer too. Walcott is an ATG too. Tommy farr I beliveis very underrated as was the very tough Godoy man if you are not knocked out in over 70 fights you are good. I sincerely believe Buddy Baer would have given fighters liek Ken Norton a fit and would have posed serious trouble today. Just his size and punch power will I think give him an excellent chance against most heavies.Buddy had a good chin too. I agree with Mike Casey when he states that he thinks Buddy has an excellent chance of capturing a belt today. Make as much fun of Tony Galento as you wish but he had a left hook like a mule's kick and when I see him I see a better version of Peter Samuels who could fight of the crouch. Nat actually voted him to have the best left hook ever and he did see a lot of goodleft hookers.Anyways these are the rankings for you and as I said in an era where oppoenets don't hide, are not protected and emerge from a very large talent pool this does matter.

These are the stats for you :-

1934
Lee Rampage - No. 10

1935
Patsy Perroni - No. 6
Natie Brown - No. 10
Primo Carnera - No. 4
King Levinsky - No. 10
Max Baer - No. 1

1936
Charley Retzlaff - No. 4
Max Schmeling - No. 2 - LOSS
Jack Sharkey - No. 4
Al Ettore - No. 3
James Braddock - World Champion
Tommy Farr - No. 3

1938
Nathan Mann - No. 3
Max Schmeling - No. 1

1939
John Henry Lewis - World Champion at Light-Heavyweight
Tony Galento - No. 3
Bob Pastor - No. 2

1940
Johnny Paychek - No. 5
Arturo Godoy (2) - No. 1

1941
Red Burman - No. 4
Buddy Baer - No. 5
Billy Conn - World Champion at Light-Heavyweight
Lou Nova - No. 1

1942
Buddy Baer - No. 4
Abe Simon - No. 6

1946
Billy Conn - No. 1
Tami Mauriello - No. 1

1947
Jersey Joe Walcott - No. 1

1948
Jersey Joe Walcott - No. 1

1950
Ezzard Charles - World Champion - LOSS

1951
Lee Savold - No. 4
Cesar Brion - No. 8
Rocky Marciano - No. 3 - LOSS


Overall record vs. top 10 opposition (incl. 2 light-heavyweight champs): 30-3

You can disagree with me and thats fine, but as I stated earlier I consider Louis's reign second to Ali only.

That's a pretty solid post right there and I commend you for your effort.

What can be interpreted of those stats is that Louis took on a great number of the best available challengers. It is not possible however to say that the 'level' of those challengers where better than in other eras and that's the debating point where subjective opinioning enters.

Now I'm not a Louis expert and I based my opinion upon opinions given in books. That's not to say that I am right and you are wrong as your opinion could be just as informed as those presented in books I've read.

[Greatest1942]

That's a pretty solid post right there and I commend you for your effort.

What can be interpreted of those stats is that Louis took on a great number of the best available challengers. It is not possible however to say that the 'level' of those challengers where better than in other eras and that's the debating point where subjective opinioning enters.

Now I'm not a Louis expert and I based my opinion upon opinions given in books. That's not to say that I am right and you are wrong as your opinion could be just as informed as those presented in books I've read.

I am asking you or the book writer to provide a top heavy's list who fought and beat better fighters except Ali ..leave aside the fancy stuff...can you name 5 heavy fighters who fought more ranked contenders? Out of curiosity what are the books you read...I can recommend you some historians who will give you a better picture

1)Mike Casey
2)Mike Hunnicut
3)Tracy Callis
4)Ronald Lipton
5)Monte Cox
6)Dan Cuoco
And a host of others whom I am pig headed enough to forget. My friend these guys are eminently qualified to tell that to you (As you will no doubt agree). Though I don't want or expect you to take their word as gospel. But my point is they are as qualified to tell you as any book writer in history.

You could have got a very good answer from Hank Klapnan as well and I sincerely believe no one knew more about boxing.

You will get a very contradicting picture from these people (who know more about boxing history than we do) than what has been fed to you by those books you might have read. Not that I am questioning the books either. Everyone has their own view.

[BattlingNelson]

I am asking you or the book writer to provide a top heavy's list who fought and beat better fighters except Ali ..leave aside the fancy stuff...can you name 5 heavy fighters who fought more ranked contenders? Out of curiosity what are the books you read...I can recommend you some historians who will give you a better picture

1)Mike Casey
2)Mike Hunnicut
3)Tracy Callis
4)Ronald Lipton
5)Monte Cox
6)Dan Cuoco
And a host of others whom I am pig headed enough to forget. My friend these guys are eminently qualified to tell that to you (As you will no doubt agree). Though I don't want or expect you to take their word as gospel. But my point is they are as qualified to tell you as any book writer in history.

You could have got a very good answer from Hank Klapnan as well and I sincerely believe no one knew more about boxing.

You will get a very contradicting picture from these people (who know more about boxing history than we do) than what has been fed to you by those books you might have read. Not that I am questioning the books either. Everyone has their own view.

I respect you a great deal and I might have some good things to read ahead of me from the guys you mentioned.

It's quite a challenge to name better eras and that might be worthy of new thread dedicated for that purpose.

Perhaps one should try and segment the eras into decades for purpose of analysis.

Below a list great heavies by decade (Forgive me if I miss some). I've bolded the decades arguably greater than Louis era:

1900's: Sullivan, Fitz, Jeffries,

1910's: Johnson, Langford, Willard, McVea, Wills, Jeanette, Burns, Gunboat Smith.

1920's: Dempsey, Tunney, Sharkey, Firpo

1930's: Louis, Max Bear, Schmeling, Sharkey,Braddock, Carnera.

1940's: Louis, Walcott.

1950's: Walcott, Charles, Marciano, Machen, Pattersson, Johansson, Folley, C. Williams.

1960's: Liston, Ali, Patterson, Terrell.

1970's: Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Quarry, Bonavena, Norton, Shavers, Young.

1980's: Tyson, Holmes, Witherspoon, M. Spinks, Cooney, Weaver, Dokes, Tucker.

1990's: Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Morrison.


Now this might not be the best way comparing decades to Louis era, but at least I gave it a shot.

[Scott9945]

What solid champ? The Klits? There is no solid champ today. We had Ali, then Holmes, then Tyson. Then what? Nothing!!

Wladimir has absolutely dominated the division for over six years now. If you don't think that makes him a solid champ, then you have no credibilty whatsoever.

[StarshipTrooper]

The one thing I think we have a concensus on is that you have Ali's resume then you have everyone else's. To be honest I don't believe, given the way boxing is run in recent decades, that Ali's resume will ever come close to being matched. It's much like the single season win record for pitchers in baseball: It will never be matched simply because pitcher don't even come close to getting 40 starts these days let alone having a shot at 40+ wins. It's an unreachable record and Ali's resume is just as unreachable given that fighters only fight a small number of mega-fights in their careers and only fight safe opponents in between those big paydays.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

I respect you a great deal and I might have some good things to read ahead of me from the guys you mentioned.

It's quite a challenge to name better eras and that might be worthy of new thread dedicated for that purpose.

Perhaps one should try and segment the eras into decades for purpose of analysis.

Below a list great heavies by decade (Forgive me if I miss some). I've bolded the decades arguably greater than Louis era:

1900's: Sullivan, Fitz, Jeffries,

1910's: Johnson, Langford, Willard, McVea, Wills, Jeanette, Burns, Gunboat Smith.

1920's: Dempsey, Tunney, Sharkey, Firpo

1930's: Louis, Max Bear, Schmeling, Sharkey,Braddock, Carnera.

1940's: Louis, Walcott.

1950's: Walcott, Charles, Marciano, Machen, Pattersson, Johansson, Folley, C. Williams.

1960's: Liston, Ali, Patterson, Terrell.

1970's: Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Quarry, Bonavena, Norton, Shavers, Young.

1980's: Tyson, Holmes, Witherspoon, M. Spinks, Cooney, Weaver, Dokes, Tucker.

1990's: Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Morrison.


Now this might not be the best way comparing decades to Louis era, but at least I gave it a shot.

Good post my friend. I have seen your posts and you appear to be a very well read poster.

Coming back to your era answer:-

My 1940 list will be :-Louis,Farr,Galento, Max Baer, Lou Nova, Buddy Baer, Walcott, Charles. Lou Nova is very underrated IMO he beat Baer 2x, beat Farr and was a very good boxer. Galento though a brawler as I explained will give most heavy's a problem due to his style and murderous left hook. I also want to tell this that he had the best left hook according to Nat and thats no joke.Farr had a great many good victories to pass him out my friend, if you mention Machen, Cleveland Williams you take Buddy Baer,Farr or Nova...what were the formers except being very good contenders and the latters were the same in their era..may be we know too little about them thats why we pass them?
For my part I will pick a focused tip top shape prime Max to beat most of the heavy's of 1950's. I know Williams was a great fighter, and a murderous puncher but take a look at Buddy's Career 52-7 with 46 knockouts. Is it too bad to get a pick while Williams does too. I personally pick Buddy (as I do Max) against Johannson and Williams...Patterson would never have got up any of his left hooks. Johannson had a very big right hand and everything else was ...well medicore...if Buddy upset Louis , (if he had landed that left on Patterson I can say Floyd will not be getting up soon), you would have picked him too ain't it?

So in 1940 we have active heavy like

Max Baer --> Top 20 heavy

Walcott->Top 15 heavy

Charles-->Top 15 or top 10 heavy(I leave it to you)

Louis -->Top 2 heavy.

Bivins --> #26. in Rings list of heavy weights.(ahead of Williams,Terrel,Mercer,QUARRY,McVey,Folley , Johansson, Ellis ,WitherSpoon, Spinks etc etc or many in your 1990,1950,1980 that you picked)

Farr -->#46. (Still ahead of Guys like Dokes or Morrison or lot of others in the 1980's,only Holmes ,WitherSppon,Spinks and Tyson are ranked ahead of him).

Lou Nova beat two of the fighters on that list, and Buddy Baer who is grossly undermined(IMO).

1910 better than Louis era :- Sorry can't go by it. Johnson never fought most of the best there was during that era. I think Willard gets aced by a lot of people you don't mention in the 1940 list including Buddy Baer or Lou Nova as is GunBoat Smith or Burns. Sam McVea, Langford ,Jeanette and Willis were great very good fighters but they were frozen out of the title pictures to make a mark and never got a chance to prove their worth. This is equal to 1940's IMO and not great by any extent. Because you forgot to include Charles in 1940's and this where he belongs...In 1950 Charles was a bit passed his prime but the 1940 or late 1940's Charles was the heavy champ and was at his peak at heavy.



1940:-Louis,Farr,Galento, Max Baer (was ranked 1 contender for some time and was pretty active towards the start), Lou Nova, Buddy Baer, Walcott, Charles,Bivins, Joey Maxim (#14 in rings list of light heavy and like Spinks regularly fought at heavy and was at one time both #1 lightHeavy and heavy contender),Elmer Ray(50 consecutive wins) and Abe Simons (massive guy ranked contender and had KO over Walcott, lost to LOuis and Baer two tremendous hitters). Add to that Conn the light heavy champ campaigned regularly at Heavy where he fought good competition as did Archie sometimes(not as often as Maxim or Conn)

1950 :- I ask you to take my above list and compare this to yours
Walcott, Charles, Marciano, Machen, Pattersson, Johansson, Folley, C. Williams. And while doing so just give the careers of the heavy's I picked against the ones you selected. Just once lets play along, and humour me. And do the same again with every list you picked against the 1940...tell me 1970 wins out but does Morrison,Mercer really are better than these guys?

I am taking the help of Rings ranking because the IBRO did not make a top 50 heavy list that I know of and Ring has been ranking fighters and following them since 1924 so I think they for now we can go by that list. Not that they are correct everytime but I believe a lot of us go by the rings rankings throughout history.

PS:- If you feel like excluding Max as he was active only for the start of the decade feel free to choose Elmer Ray,Joey Maxim, Bob Pastor, Lee Q Murray etc anyone in the list.

[Greatest1942]

The one thing I think we have a concensus on is that you have Ali's resume then you have everyone else's. To be honest I don't believe, given the way boxing is run in recent decades, that Ali's resume will ever come close to being matched. It's much like the single season win record for pitchers in baseball: It will never be matched simply because pitcher don't even come close to getting 40 starts these days let alone having a shot at 40+ wins. It's an unreachable record and Ali's resume is just as unreachable given that fighters only fight a small number of mega-fights in their careers and only fight safe opponents in between those big paydays.

Poet

The same reason I believe Louis's record 25 defenses are never to be broken because they will have to fight 20 years to do that today.But looking at your signature "Morales_" god, if I had only saw this a bit earlier I could have spared myself a lot of trouble.

[Greatest1942]

I respect you a great deal and I might have some good things to read ahead of me from the guys you mentioned.

It's quite a challenge to name better eras and that might be worthy of new thread dedicated for that purpose.

Perhaps one should try and segment the eras into decades for purpose of analysis.

Below a list great heavies by decade (Forgive me if I miss some). I've bolded the decades arguably greater than Louis era:

1900's: Sullivan, Fitz, Jeffries,

1910's: Johnson, Langford, Willard, McVea, Wills, Jeanette, Burns, Gunboat Smith.

1920's: Dempsey, Tunney, Sharkey, Firpo

1930's: Louis, Max Bear, Schmeling, Sharkey,Braddock, Carnera.

1940's: Louis, Walcott.

1950's: Walcott, Charles, Marciano, Machen, Pattersson, Johansson, Folley, C. Williams.

1960's: Liston, Ali, Patterson, Terrell.

1970's: Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Quarry, Bonavena, Norton, Shavers, Young.

1980's: Tyson, Holmes, Witherspoon, M. Spinks, Cooney, Weaver, Dokes, Tucker.

1990's: Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Mercer, Morrison.


Now this might not be the best way comparing decades to Louis era, but at least I gave it a shot.

Bat since you picked guys like MorrisonCooney,Mercer,Firpo in your list I will ask you to take a look at these fighters from the 1940's

Elmer Ray 6’2”, 194-Holds the longest winning streak in heavyweight history winning 50 fights in a row during the decade. The two big names during the stretch were Lee Savold and Jersey Joe Walcott. Another big name that fell to Ray was Charles in a questionable decision in 1947. Charles won the rematch. During the decade Ray lost to Turkey Thompson, Charles, Walcott, Kid Rivera and John Holman. (74-6-1) .Only person who Louis allegedly ducked..Moot point though since he was busted up thrice in exhibitions by Louis.In my opinion, Ray's exceptional record during his peak years and wins over two champions-to-be who were at or near their own peaks distinguish him as one of the best contenders in the history of the division never to win the title.He was also #44 in Rings list of 100 best punchers.

Joey Maxim 6’1”, 182-Maxim defeated Jersey Joe Walcott, Pat Valentino, Bob Satterfield, Jimmy Bivins, and Gus Lesnevich. His losses were to Jersey Joe Walcott(2), Joe Kahut and Ezzard Charles. (67-16-4) .Looks a solid resume aint it?Not a genuine heavy but more of a light heavy. defeated Patterson when he was very green towards the end of his career. I didn't need to bring Maxim in , but a lot of light heavy of other eras are counted too except 1970's and 1990's. Moorer was he a true heavy? With modern supplements I hold that Maxim will be as big as Moorer atleast.

Bob Pastor 6’0”, 183- Pastors big claim to fame was his two fights with Joe Louis in 1937 and 1939. The first of the two he lost a close decision and the second he lost in the 11th round by KO. By the 1940s he was on the tail end of his career. He has two victories over Turkey Thompson and defeated Gus Lesnevich and split with Jimmy Bivins and fought a draw with Tami Mauriello. He only lost twice in the decade and that was to Billy Conn and Bivins. (14-2-1)

Lee Q. Murray 6’3”, 210- Murray defeated Curtis Sheppard(4), Turkey Thompson, Jimmy Bivins(2), his losses included Curtis Sheppard(2), Jimmy Bivins(3), Jersey Joe Walcott, Turkey Thompson. He was the number 3 ranked heavyweight in the world in 1943 and 1947. (53-17-1) .Big guy too you know. And a terrific hitter.A very good boxer-puncher who Curtis Shephard thought could have been in champion in other eras...very underrated and forgotten.

Turkey Thompson 5’8”,203- Thompson was the last fighter to defeat Elmer Ray before he went on his 50 fight win streak.KO in 1 believe me. Other wins included Pat Valentino, Perk Daniels, Arthuro Godoy and Lee Q. Murray. His losses were to Bob Pastor(2), Pat Valentino(2), Perk Daniels, Lee Q. Murray, Al Hart and Jimmy Bivins. (40-8-2) He was like the David Tua of that era...if today someone knocks out Valuev, you will say he is a great puncher aint it.With a different ref, he also scores a 1 round knockout win against Bob Pastor(having knocked him down 6 times in the first round). He also knocked out a bunch of men who were either at the time/once were Ring Magazine top 10 including Elmer Ray, Lee Q Murray, Eddie Blunt, Gus Dorazio, Johnny Haynes, Al Hart, Pat Valentino. Thompson even knocked out a 7'2 300lb Big Ben Moroz, whom sported a 15" height advantage on Thompson!!

Lee Savold 6’0”, 195- A very active fighter during the decade Savold defeated his share of top heavyweights; Lou Nova(2), Johnny Flynn, Tony Musto, Lem Fanklin(2), Joe Baksi, Gus Dorazio and Buddy Walker. His losses were many also, Harry Bbo(2), Tony Musto, Tami Mauriello(2), Jimmy Bivins, Joe Baksi(2), Elmer Ray and Phil Muscato(2).(51-17-3). Fought Louis in the 50's when both were kind of shot...Louis knocked him out..his last KO.

Joe Baksi 6’1”, 210 (#1 Contender 1944, 1945) 60-9-3 (bad is it?) Notable Wins: 8
Tami Mauriello, Lee Savold, Gunnar Barlund, Lou Nova, Freddie Schott, Freddie Mills, Bruce Wood****, Olle Tandberg.The fighter who GJC uses in his profile pic.

Tami Mauriello 5’11 ½”, 198 :- 82-13-1. Beat Gunnar Barlund(2), Tony Musto(2), Red Burman, Lee Savold(2), Lou Nova(2), Lee Oma(2), Bruce Wood****.

You include Shavers,Lyle and they were good great punchers who beat some of the best of their era and got beat by the best too (they are good picks though). What was Shavers except his murderous punch power. Was he very great...Well you can take a look at this guy Curtis Shepard. Knocked out Maxim(Maxim had a good chin) in one round and Archie Moore was adamant that he was the hardest puncher he faced. What was Thompson? If you saw him today KO 300 pound giant you would have him in your list ain't it. Put Thompson in 1990 and he gets more accolades than Morrison ever did IMO. Just take a look again at Lem Franklin.His heavyweight run from 1939-1941 is one of the greatest untold stories in history. Franklin literally cleaned up the division, beating almost every contender in sight by knockout to earn a # 2 ranking. Franklin went 19-0 with 17 knockouts during this period. Not quite average eh?

Franklin during this 3 year period knocked out the following men who were/at one time Ring Magazine top 10....Lee Savold, Perk Daniels, Willie Reddish, Eddie Blunt, Jimmy Bivins, Curtis Sheppard, Tony Musto, Abe Simon. How's that sounds similar to some stories you hear every now and then ?? Note he wasn't beating these men by decision, he knocked all of them out!! A bit of TV showing those highlights and ......


Besides the fact that two great Light heavy's Archie Moore and Billy Conn regularly fought heavyweights and campaigned as heavyweights often. Had Conn beaten Louis , I daresay he would have been picked by you as well as a lot of others like Michael Spinks is every time 80's come into play.

Looking at these fighters it further illuminates the point I was trying to make to you Bat that in those days there was a greater no of talent pool , the guys were every experienced and fought each other regularly just look at their number of fights vs Snipes when he fought Holmes. I hope you will agree with me when I say that :
Its harder to be top 10 amongst 1000 than to be among 400. The number of fighters in 1950's were greater than in 1980's,1990's or now...But who cares? Between you and me if these guys, which I mention came after the television era we would have them ranked much higher....Louis held the title for so long these guys never got a chance to it...They had no alphabet belts to win like today, which would have helped them too as the champion was fighting #1, #2 etc (who on their hand went through these guys to become #1 or #2,aint it ? so it helps you get a better idea of their level I hope ). Elmer Ray would have been a phenomenon on tele as would have been Murray.Maybe if they lived in Patterson's era they could have won the belt and been on the list just like Johannson is.Louis could have lost to Conn and made him an ATG great as Spinks is.Cooney,Morrison,MERCER,Witherspoon,Dokes,Tucker ,Weaver do not actually ace these guys , still whatever....

[Greatest1942]

And while Shavers is universally declared the hardest puncher (I agree with that) guys read this :-

Kapphan claims the world never knew what happened at the Centre Ave Gym one day in 1942 because Bobo blacked out for 4 hours(from 2 to 6 pm), 5 days before taking on Bill Boyd in Cleveland.

"Bobo was nailed on the button during a training session with Curtis Sheppard- the man I nicknamed 'Hatchet-Man,' says Kapphan. "It was hard a punch as any man ever threw and ever afterwards, through the years, Bobo occasionally complained of headaches."

The former mgr of Bobo noted that Harry complained of a headache in Philadelphia while attending a party, was whisked away to a hospital, where he later died.

"Most people do not realize that Sheppard was the hardest puncher the ring has ever produced. He could smash human bones with a single, crushing delivery," said Kapphan. "We had to summon an ambulance on March 10, 1943, in Cleveland, when Sheppard appeared to have killed Joey Maxim with a single first-round punch. Maxim was stopped just that one time, all his career."

"Remember Big Boy Brown, that pawing 260-pound cousin of Joe Louis? Curtis actually crushed Brown's chin so severely that surgeons had to wire the parts together."

A BBC documentary or something migh thave helped here too.

[Tyson.]

"Louis' resume has noone as good as Witherspoon, Norton, Tyson or Holyfield. No question that Holmes fought the better opposition.", I dont need to bother, go and read up a bit or wallow in self pity or keep posting more garbage...The more you post anyone who knows a-b-c of boxing will see that you are an ignorant fool nad keep ignoring you...keep the trash coming.

Like I said earlier Patterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis all fought better opposition than Louis ever did.

If you want to have a deluded opinion of Louis suit yourself. His challenger were bums of the month whether they were ranked or not does not matter because their quality isnt that good.

Theres a reason why the 60/70s and 90s are known as great heavyweight eras because they contained great fighters.