Lennox Lewis A Top 10 ATG Heavyweight...Really?

[GJC]

GJC .. are you saying that Bonecrusher, Bey, Cobb, Witherspoon, Cooney, Spinks, Carl Williams, Berbick would not beat Botha, Akinwande, Butler, Fortune, Tua, Grant, Rahman, Mavrovic or McCall ?

Rahman could only get a decision over a 43yr old Berbick

McCall lost to an old Frank Bruno who was hammered by both Witherspoon & Bonecrusher

i would not fancy Lewis to beat the majority of Holmes opponents

Bonecrusher, Witherspoon, Cooney and Berbick would have success though i'd favour Tua and McCall but Cobb, Bey and the rest, c'mon! : )
I rate Holmes above Lewis head to head or any other measure but I can't think beyond Witherspoon or the Norton (that Holmes fought) of any of Holmes opponents that Lewis wouldn't beat.
You have Lewis at 14(?) if memory serves I have him at around 12 so no major argument with your 14 ranking, but to say he would struggle with the likes of Bey or Cobb is you going back to Brian London/David Tua territory again.

[Toney616]

Tyson Tyson is a year younger than Lennox, and ducked him relentlessly throughout the 90's. Lennox has the head 2 head victory and better overall record, so this is not a tough decision for me. I have Tyson ranked #6.

Your definiton of prime is wrong and it has been pointed out to you on a number of times and you are still using it. It doesn't matter if they were 1 year apart in age or not, Lewis was close to his prime, while Tyson was a shot fighter. That win means nothing

As for Tyson ducking Lewis, that only happened once, when he chose to vacate the WBC belt and fight Holyfield instead who was seen as a lower risk/higher reward opponent than Lewis. He had no reason to fear Lewis back then because:

-Lewis had a competitive fight with an over the hill Tucker
-Went life and death with Bruno
-Was koed in two rounds by his former sparring partner, McCall
-Needed a gift decision to beat the limited Mercer

The second time Tyson wanted a warm up fight against Mercer to get him ready for Lewis and Lewis had him dragged to court to force him to cancel the Mercer fight.

Lewis himself would vacate his IBF belt to avoid fighting Byrd

Lewis would also retire to avoid faving Vitali again. he didnt want to retire, I know that because:

-He had signed a multimillion 3 fight deal with HBO
-Dragged Tyson to court again to try to force him to fight him again
-Was in negotiations with Jones promoter about a possible Lewis-Jones fight

Also this:

Vitali Klitschko claims Lennox Lewis's mum prevented a rematch

Plans for an eagerly anticipated rematch never materialised, with Klitschko yesterday offering an interesting explanation for why that was the case. "Lennox promised me but his mum decided he wasn't going to fight," said the 38-year-old ahead of the Laureus World Sports Awards in Abu Dhabi. "He invited me to London, without managers. He said he wanted to talk just together. I came to the room and his mum is there. We talked for two hours and his mum was looking at me and scanning me.

"After that I went away and he called me a couple of hours later and said, 'Sorry, but no'. I felt it wasn't his decision, his mum decided. I tried to change his decision, but it's difficult

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/mar/10/vitali-klitschko-lennox-lewis-mum

[Joeyzagz]

Your definiton of prime is wrong and it has been pointed out to you on a number of times and you are still using it. It doesn't matter if they were 1 year apart in age or not, Lewis was close to his prime, while Tyson was a shot fighter. That win means nothing

Physical Prime is generally the same for all humans and it applies to every athlete across the board. Males lose 2% of their testosterone every year after they turn 30. This is a REAL fact of nature and not some silly boxing argument.

Age is the ONLY variable that is totally out of the athletes control which is why I place emphasis on it. Everything else is the responsibility of the fighter.

It is up to the athlete to train properly for a fight
It is up to the athlete to protect his chin and reduce punishment.
It is up to the athlete to refrain from drug use
It is up to the athlete to NOT **** women and spend 3 years in jail.

Tyson being finished as an elite fighter at 23 is Tyson's fault, and the direct result of the decisions he made as a person. I can only go by reality... If you want to make a hypothetical list where Lennox smokes crack and Tyson is not such a moron with his career then we can take it to the fantasy forum.

[Toney616]

Physical Prime is generally the same for all humans and it applies to every athlete across the board. Males lose 2% of their testosterone every year after they turn 30. This is a REAL fact of nature and not some silly boxing argument.

You are confusing two different things, physical prime and a fighters prime are not the same thing.

A fighter is considered to be prime during the period when they are at their physical peak (rough estimate 24-35) and technical peak. A fighter as a rough estimate should reach their fighters prime after they have had around 25+ fights and their technical foundation has been throughly grounded. According to you Lewis would be prime when he made his pro debut at 24 years old, when the reality is he was a green contender. The fighter would generally be considered to be past prime when you notice that their reaction time has started to slow down and you see them getting hit with punches they normally would slipped/blocked/evaded

Age is the ONLY variable that is totally out of the athletes control which is why I place emphasis on it. Everything else is the responsibility of the fighter.

It is up to the athlete to train properly for a fight
It is up to the athlete to protect his chin and reduce punishment.
It is up to the athlete to refrain from drug use

It doesn't work like that. Boxing is an attrition sport with the rates of attrition varying due to a number of things like:
amount of sparring
wars
fighters style

Morales was clearly past prime after by the time of the third Barrera fight, he was basically shot by Pacquaio 3. He was in his late 20's

Jones was past prime by the Harmon fight, you can see that his reflexes had started to slow down as he was getting hit with punches he would of normally slipped. He was in his early 30's

Hagler was past prime by the time of the Mugabi fight you can see that his reflexes/timing is way off as he keeps missing with his straight rights. He was in his early 30's

Meldrick Taylor was never the same after his fight with Chavez, he was in his early 20's

etc
etc

If you are a fighter fighting the best out there you are going to take a lot of punishment, whether you like it or not. Different fighters react to punishment differently to others, compare Lewis post McCall I to Hatton post Mayweather for example. Or compare how age effects different fighters differently, compare technical based fighters like Toney, Hopkins to athletic based fighters Jones, Nunn, when they hit their 30's

This stuff has to be taken into account when you evaluate a win over a certain fighter, you cannot just say, "oh they should of protected themself more or oh they should of trained properly". If Calzaghe had moved up to lhw back in 1999 (as HBO wanted-they wanted him to fight on a Jones undercard to spark interest in a Jones-Calzaghe fight) and had wars with Jones, Johnson, Darius M etc do you think he would been the same fighter at 36 when he retired? I dont think so.

It is up to the athlete to NOT **** women and spend 3 years in jail.

You obviously dont know anything about the **** case, which is why you keep bringing it up Their was a lot of facts which Tyson's team where not allowed to use, but they were revealed to the jury after the case had reached its conclusion like:

-Before Desiree decided to press charges she called around to find out how much money she could sue Tyson for if he gets convicted. Her Lawyer agreed to take her case on the agreement that she would use him when she sued Tyson (i.e he gets a slice of the money). In otherwords before she even decided to press charges she was already thinking of the money. She would sue Tyson in a civil court after he came out of prison for around 2M

-She had accused a former classmate of **** in the past and when the classmate confronted here (after getting permission from her father) she said,"what else did you expect me to say, I was going to get into trouble with my father for coming home late?"

When the jury heard this they were shocked and openly admitted that they may have made a mistake, some even asked to judge for a retrail

source:Tyson:nuture of the beast
The Dark Trade
see also Tyson the sports century documentary

Tyson being finished as an elite fighter at 23 is Tyson's fault, and the direct result of the decisions he made as a person. I can only go by reality... If you want to make a hypothetical list where Lennox smokes crack and Tyson is not such a moron with his career then we can take it to the fantasy forum.

It doesnt matter if it's his fault or not, he wasnt the same fighter he used to be when he was at his peak. Lewis knew that, which is the reason he didnt want Tyson fighting Mercer because he knew Tyson was going to lose

According to your logic Ali-Berbick, Holmes-Ali, calzaghe-Jones, Lewis-Tyson were all great wins for the victors. When the truth is they beat fighters who shouldn't of even been in the ring, let alone competing. Calzaghe said himself that Jones was shot. Manny Steward, Dundee, Atlas, Gil Clancy, Eddie Futch have all said that Tyson was clearly on the slide way before he hit his 30's and those guys know much more about boxing than you do. So who is wrong all of those guys or you?

[CarlosG815]

You are confusing two different things, physical prime and a fighters prime are not the same thing.

A fighter is considered to be prime during the period when they are at their physical peak (rough estimate 24-35) and technical peak. A fighter as a rough estimate should reach their fighters prime after they have had around 25+ fights and their technical foundation has been throughly grounded. According to you Lewis would be prime when he made his pro debut at 24 years old, when the reality is he was a green contender. The fighter would generally be considered to be past prime when you notice that their reaction time has started to slow down and you see them getting hit with punches they normally would slipped/blocked/evaded

It doesn't work like that. Boxing is an attrition sport with the rates of attrition varying due to a number of things like:
amount of sparring
wars
fighters style

Morales was clearly past prime after by the time of the third Barrera fight, he was basically shot by Pacquaio 3. He was in his late 20's

Jones was past prime by the Harmon fight, you can see that his reflexes had started to slow down as he was getting hit with punches he would of normally slipped. He was in his early 30's

Hagler was past prime by the time of the Mugabi fight you can see that his reflexes/timing is way off as he keeps missing with his straight rights. He was in his early 30's

Meldrick Taylor was never the same after his fight with Chavez, he was in his early 20's

etc
etc

If you are a fighter fighting the best out there you are going to take a lot of punishment, whether you like it or not. Different fighters react to punishment differently to others, compare Lewis post McCall I to Hatton post Mayweather for example. Or compare how age effects different fighters differently, compare technical based fighters like Toney, Hopkins to athletic based fighters Jones, Nunn, when they hit their 30's

This stuff has to be taken into account when you evaluate a win over a certain fighter, you cannot just say, "oh they should of protected themself more or oh they should of trained properly". If Calzaghe had moved up to lhw back in 1999 (as HBO wanted-they wanted him to fight on a Jones undercard to spark interest in a Jones-Calzaghe fight) and had wars with Jones, Johnson, Darius M etc do you think he would been the same fighter at 36 when he retired? I dont think so.

You obviously dont know anything about the **** case, which is why you keep bringing it up Their was a lot of facts which Tyson's team where not allowed to use, but they were revealed to the jury after the case had reached its conclusion like:

-Before Desiree decided to press charges she called around to find out how much money she could sue Tyson for if he gets convicted. Her Lawyer agreed to take her case on the agreement that she would use him when she sued Tyson (i.e he gets a slice of the money). In otherwords before she even decided to press charges she was already thinking of the money. She would sue Tyson in a civil court after he came out of prison for around 2M

-She had accused a former classmate of **** in the past and when the classmate confronted here (after getting permission from her father) she said,"what else did you expect me to say, I was going to get into trouble with my father for coming home late?"

When the jury heard this they were shocked and openly admitted that they may have made a mistake, some even asked to judge for a retrail

source:Tyson:nuture of the beast
The Dark Trade
see also Tyson the sports century documentary


It doesnt matter if it's his fault or not, he wasnt the same fighter he used to be when he was at his peak. Lewis knew that, which is the reason he didnt want Tyson fighting Mercer because he knew Tyson was going to lose

According to your logic Ali-Berbick, Holmes-Ali, calzaghe-Jones, Lewis-Tyson were all great wins for the victors. When the truth is they beat fighters who shouldn't of even been in the ring, let alone competing. Calzaghe said himself that Jones was shot. Manny Steward, Dundee, Atlas, Gil Clancy, Eddie Futch have all said that Tyson was clearly on the slide way before he hit his 30's and those guys know much more about boxing than you do. So who is wrong all of those guys or you?

Great post. I've said this to that moron 1,000,000 times and he doesn't get it. I don't even have the energy for him anymore.

Regardless of how much sense what you just said makes, you will see him post the same nonsense in countless threads to come. Probably as soon as tomorrow.

He is that dense.

[Toney616]

Great post. I've said this to that moron 1,000,000 times and he doesn't get it. I don't even have the energy for him anymore.

Thanks

Regardless of how much sense what you just said makes, you will see him post the same nonsense in countless threads to come. Probably as soon as tomorrow.

He is that dense.

He has to hold on to his definition of prime because without out it he can't class shot Jones as a great win for Calzaghe or shot Tyson as a great win for Lewis. Ignorance is bliss, as they say

[Joeyzagz]

4/. Jack Dempsey - The most ferocious champion in history who used contenders as "Sparring partners" such was his superiority over them, if journeymen like Rahman & McCall can poleaxe Lewis in a couple of rounds then Dempsey would massacre Lewis in the opening round.

Jack Dempsey = Mike Tyson.

They are both electrifying, savage, charismatic and most of all:Overated. Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson look spectacular against bums but the second they ran into a decent boxer they just couldn't win. If you are 31 years old, and calling your self the best ever, then at the very least you should be able to defeat a LHW coming up.

And if you want to bring up sparring partners Harry Greb was able to whip Dempsey's ass just like any other boxer with decent skills would. Greb thought Jack was a joke, and knew Tunney would soundly beat him.

We can only wonder how many more defeats Dempsey would suffer if he was facing the best fighters instead of just the best white. Prime Lennox would launch that 195 lb body into the 2nd row if they ever fought. LL is just to big and powerful for the 1920s.

[GoogleMe]

He's above both Tyson and Frazier. In my eyes, Frazier is too overrated just because of the Ali fight. I love Frazier, great personality and a fighter. but...... His accomplishments are nowhere near top 10 worthy.

[GJC]

You obviously dont know anything about the **** case, which is why you keep bringing it up Their was a lot of facts which Tyson's team where not allowed to use, but they were revealed to the jury after the case had reached its conclusion like:

-Before Desiree decided to press charges she called around to find out how much money she could sue Tyson for if he gets convicted. Her Lawyer agreed to take her case on the agreement that she would use him when she sued Tyson (i.e he gets a slice of the money). In otherwords before she even decided to press charges she was already thinking of the money. She would sue Tyson in a civil court after he came out of prison for around 2M

-She had accused a former classmate of **** in the past and when the classmate confronted here (after getting permission from her father) she said,"what else did you expect me to say, I was going to get into trouble with my father for coming home late?"

When the jury heard this they were shocked and openly admitted that they may have made a mistake, some even asked to judge for a retrail

Very good post in general, I only highlight the above because I was never comfortable with the **** trial. It would have to be one very innocent naive girl who went to a man's hotel room especially a man like Tyson who from all accounts wasn't exactly like Cary Grant (showing my age, I know!) and not know what he had in mind. My feeling was she thought that she was going to become Tyson's new girlfriend and quickly discovered that Tyson's plans with her didn't go beyond that evening.
As for Tyson's prime I had him pretty much sliding after Spinks, I thought when he fought Bruno that a Douglas performance would have beaten him.

[Joeyzagz]

You are confusing two different things, physical prime and a fighters prime are not the same thing.

Physical prime is 18-32 for all humans. I dont care what you think a fighters prime is, Nature says a 31 year old Vitali should have a significant youth advantage over A 37 year old Lennox. That 6 year gap is a lot wider than say a: 21 year old and a 27 year old...LL was past it and a rematch would be pointless.

You obviously dont know anything about the **** case, which is why you keep bringing it up Their was a lot of facts which Tyson's team where not allowed to use, but they were revealed to the jury after the case had reached its conclusion like:

Tyson is damned idiot either way. If he is that ******ed to put himself in a situation like that, he deserves to be in prison. He admitted to punching/robbing old ladies in the past, so either way, he belonged there.

According to your logic Ali-Berbick, Holmes-Ali, calzaghe-Jones, Lewis-Tyson were all great wins for the victors. When the truth is they beat fighters who shouldn't of even been in the ring, let alone competing. Calzaghe said himself that Jones was shot. Manny Steward, Dundee, Atlas, Gil Clancy, Eddie Futch have all said that Tyson was clearly on the slide way before he hit his 30's and those guys know much more about boxing than you do. So who is wrong all of those guys or you?

Holmes/Berbick had considerable youth advantages over Ali, so those werent great wins.

Lennox/Tyson: same age, both been ko'd twice, fair game.

Zags and Roy were both over 35, only 3 years apart, fair game.