Roy Jones vs James Toney: How could Toney of won this?

[r.burgundy]

Power: Jones
Handspeed: Jones
Footspeed: Jones
Skillset:Equal
Intangibles:Equal

I watched this fight again the other day, it was a terrible style match up for Toney. Jones's speed and reflexes didn't give Toney any opportunity to play counter puncher. Jones's leaping left hook was a punch, which Toney's shoulder roll couldn't defend himself against either (like a left hook from the southpaw stance). On top of all of that, after Jones got of his shots he would slide to Toneys left, away from his right hook, effectively neutralising it.

So the question is, is there any strategy Toney could of used to win this fight?

thats not true at all.toney was able to time jones several times when he was leaping in.problem was he couldnt keep up with jones workrate.the thing i was most suprised was that even in 94,they were talking about toneys next fight taking place at heavyweight which say all we need to know about james conditioning

[Fighting Marine]

IMO Jones was too much of an athlete for Toney. No amount of skill could deal with Jones' freakish speed and reflexes.

[Miburo]

IMO Jones was too much of an athlete for Toney. No amount of skill could deal with Jones' freakish speed and reflexes.

The only strategy appropriate for Jones' athleticism (as Tarver illustrated when he was somewhat faded) is precise, well-timed counters catching him coming in. Toney had the skill to do it and the power to stop him, but he would have to be at the peak of his game.

[Fighting Marine]

as Tarver illustrated when he was somewhat faded

I just don't see anyone catching a prime Roy.

[Miburo]

I just don't see anyone catching a prime Roy.

As was noted, Toney was able to connect but too sluggish to do so consistently or effectively follow up due to poor conditioning. Toney was the best offensive counterpuncher in the game, if anyone had a chance with that approach, it would be him.

[frankenfrank]

(1) Toney was weight drained for the fight having to lose 16-17 lbs by dehydration in less than 24 hours , is there anyone here to claim Toney would have performed the same if he was not in that condition ?
(or in other words : the severe draining had no effect on him ?)
(2) Was fact #1 (Toney's condition) unknown to Jones' team and management and himself ?
(3) Did Jones ever give him a rematch ?
(and don't use the Griffin excuse because when given enough time to
prepare (warm) (unlike in their rematch) Montell gave Roy as much
trouble as he gave to Toney)
(4) How many prime in shape fairly skilled (or above) opponents has Jones ever fought ? and does anyone think this case was an exception to that principle ?



All in all Jones is not at another level from Toney's , prinzmanspoppa is wrong.
Toney's performance was hindered by his severe draining whomever fault it was keep in mind Jones looked flashy against a slowed Toney , not against a sharp Toney but still was timid as usual and won a decision.

Another thing to remember when comparing the two is that Jones fought
almost every one of their mutual opponents after Toney did which means
he fought them when they were older and already damaged by Toney
and others.

Jones fought almost every big name in his record when either :
(1) he was old / remote from his prime years and already damaged by
others.
examples : Mike McCallum , Vinny Pazienza ,
Tony Thornton , Merqui Sosa , Jorge Vaca ,
Thulani Malinga , Thomas Tate
(2) remote from his original/best weight
examples : Mike McCallum , Vinny Pazienza , Felix Trinidad ,
Reggie Johnson , Jorge Vaca
(3) drained
examples : James Toney

and when by some case it was not one of the above he fought either :
undefeated barnstormers with a more padded record than his own whom went on to become tomato cans : Glen Kelly , Bryant Brannon ,
Anthony Hanshaw


or , fighters whom were always far from great after they were exposed and proven as such like : Virgil Hill

[Toney616]

(1) Toney was weight drained for the fight having to lose 16-17 lbs by dehydration in less than 24 hours , is there anyone here to claim Toney would have performed the same if he was not in that condition ?

Whose fault is that, Jones's or Toney's? This was the biggest fight of his life, it was his job to get in shape. I don't ever remember him complaining after getting a win over Tiberi, when he was in worse shape.

(or in other words : the severe draining had no effect on him ?)
(2) Was fact #1 (Toney's condition) unknown to Jones' team and management and himself ?

Its Toney's job to keep in shape, not Jones and his team

(3) Did Jones ever give him a rematch ?
(and don't use the Griffin excuse because when given enough time to
prepare (warm) (unlike in their rematch) Montell gave Roy as much
trouble as he gave to Toney)

Toney had a rematach clause in the original contract, but chose not to exercise it

(4) How many prime in shape fairly skilled (or above) opponents has Jones ever fought ? and does anyone think this case was an exception to that principle ?

Toney
Hopkins
Tarver*3
Griffin*2

All in all Jones is not at another level from Toney's , prinzmanspoppa is wrong.
Toney's performance was hindered by his severe draining whomever fault it was keep in mind Jones looked flashy against a slowed Toney , not against a sharp Toney but still was timid as usual and won a decision.

Even if Toney wasn't drained, he would of lost the same way.
Also the thing you seem to forget is that even Kallen said that Toney was confident before the fight, It was only after the fight that he started with all of his excuses. He was in terrible shape against Tiberi, I don't remember him complaining after he got his gift win

Another thing to remember when comparing the two is that Jones fought
almost every one of their mutual opponents after Toney did which means
he fought them when they were older and already damaged by Toney
and others.

Jones fought almost every big name in his record when either :
(1) he was old / remote from his prime years and already damaged by
others.
examples : Mike McCallum , Vinny Pazienza ,
Tony Thornton , Merqui Sosa , Jorge Vaca ,
Thulani Malinga , Thomas Tate
(2) remote from his original/best weight
examples : Mike McCallum , Vinny Pazienza , Felix Trinidad ,
Reggie Johnson , Jorge Vaca
(3) drained
examples : James Toney

and when by some case it was not one of the above he fought either :
undefeated barnstormers with a more padded record than his own whom went on to become tomato cans : Glen Kelly , Bryant Brannon ,
Anthony Hanshaw


or , fighters whom were always far from great after they were exposed and proven as such like : Virgil Hill

Stop the hating dude

[Miburo]

Toney
Hopkins
Tarver*3
Griffin*2

This CAN'T be serious Hopkins? PRIME?

[Toney616]

thats not true at all.toney was able to time jones several times when he was leaping in.

I can only think of a couple of times, he was able to time him

problem was he couldnt keep up with jones workrate.

It was Jones's speed more than his workrate that was giving Toney trouble

the thing i was most suprised was that even in 94,they were talking about toneys next fight taking place at heavyweight which say all we need to know about james conditioning

No, they were talking about him moving up to light heavyweight

[Toney616]

This CAN'T be serious Hopkins? PRIME?

When did Hopkins prime start according to you?