Why did Liston throw the 2nd fight with Ali?

[Sugarj]

I'm in full agreement with boxingboy, Liston's acting was simply pathetic as he feigned trying to get up, then just rolled over with an embarrassed look on his face. It must have been 20-30 odd seconds after being dropped by this inoccuous looking right hand and finally getting up that Walcott (the ref) let Ali loose on Liston again......after such a recovery Liston could surely have thrown one punch in defense.......but nothing.

He simply had no interest in winning that fight and couldn't be bothered picking up anything other than a paycheck to blow on hookers and the craps table!

[Sugarj]

Just timed it......27 seconds!!!!!!

[GJC]

True, Liston in my mind threw that fight. The punch looked innocuous, even Ali seemed disgraced that Liston went down.

As to why Liston took a dive here are a few thoughts/ponderables:

1) The mob wanted to make a killing on a first round KO bet? Only problem was that there were no reports of anyone making a terrific win. There would be terrific odds against Ali getting a first round KO.

2) The Black Muslims had threatened Liston with death if he didn't lose? Who knows, they are credited with wiping out Malcolm X? There is no evidence for this though. Perhaps with the memory of Malcolm X's death fresh in mind Liston took a dive so as to avoid the possibility of retrobution should he have won.

3) Perhaps there was a gorgeous girl waiting for him. There were rumours of Liston being told to KO his opponent's early because the 'squeeze' his handlers had brought for him would leave early if the fight dragged on late. I personally think this is ridiculous! But so was the fight ending!!!!

4) Liston was a complex character, after two minutes of swinging and for the most part missing he may have thought 'f##k this'. the 1964 fight was humiliating enough, but in 1965 Ali looked even bigger and much more confident.

5) Liston may not have been in the best of shape. He had apparently trained very well for the original return date, which was delayed due to Ali's hernia troubles. The idea of a new training camp may have simply left him stale and demotivated. Granted......he did look in good shape (to the eye!) for the match, but Liston never turned up for a fight in obviously poor shape.

6) Liston was vilified as champ, he got a lot of bad press. Nobody seemed to like him. Why would he want to reclaim a championship that brought him grief and misery?

Great post sugar.

To touch on the 6th point I think Liston was terribly hurt not to get the respect/recognition he felt he derserved as HW champ maybe he just thought forget the glory lets pick up the money?
His behaviour in both fights was questionable maybe after a few rounds of the 1st fight he knew Ali had his number?

[Sugarj]

Hi GJC, you dont seem to have been online too much recently. Its good to have you back.

I agree that in the first Ali fight he probably did realise that Ali had his number. But that fight was just odd.

Liston wasn't actually doing that badly. Ali's boxing in retreat was great in round one, but round two was quite close. Ali dazzled in the first half of round three, but then seemed to tire letting Liston almost even up the round. There was very little to separate them in round four. Round five obviously was clearly Liston's (the caustic liniment round!) but for me he really could have pressed the issue knowing Ali's weakness......but despite some nasty body punches, he didn't really commit himself. THEN he simply shows hardly any offense in round six and lets Ali pepper him with shots without much retaliation before retiring with a shoulder injury.

I'm sure the 1964 Ali probably would have beaten Liston, but I wasn't really satisfied with either fight.

[GJC]

Hi GJC, you dont seem to have been online too much recently. Its good to have you back.

I agree that in the first Ali fight he probably did realise that Ali had his number. But that fight was just odd.

Liston wasn't actually doing that badly. Ali's boxing in retreat was great in round one, but round two was quite close. Ali dazzled in the first half of round three, but then seemed to tire letting Liston almost even up the round. There was very little to separate them in round four. Round five obviously was clearly Liston's (the caustic liniment round!) but for me he really could have pressed the issue knowing Ali's weakness......but despite some nasty body punches, he didn't really commit himself. THEN he simply shows hardly any offense in round six and lets Ali pepper him with shots without much retaliation before retiring with a shoulder injury.

I'm sure the 1964 Ali probably would have beaten Liston, but I wasn't really satisfied with either fight.

No both fights were strange thats for sure, guess we'll never know the story.
No been bit busy recently so not posting as much also we are having warm weather and computer is in a stuffy room.
It is quite funny that if I don't post for a couple of days and given my advancing years, I think a few people think i've died lol.
I'm sure some of you guys are running a sweepstake

[Sugarj]

Ha ha, no that didn't come to mind! I'm glad to report no symptoms of dementia have ever manifest themselves either!

[#1Assassin]

Why did Sonny Liston throw the 2nd fight with Muhammad Ali.

Why did he train so hard if he was going to throw the fight?

I know there were death threats on Muhammad Ali's life.Real death threats.Then the muslims put out death threats on Sonny Liston's life.The boxing writers at ringside were wearing bullet proof vests,and women's purses coming to the fight were being checked.

Does all of this somehow have something to do with Liston taking a dive? Did the mob have something to do with Sonny taking a dive? Why would the mob want there man to take a dive?

he didnt take a dive.

he got legitimately dropped by a legitimate punch, he would have gotten to his feet but ali kep circling refusing to go to a neutral corner. keep in mind liston thought ali was crazy, literally a mental case. he thought ali was gonna hit him as he tried to get up (hes said so himself). also keep in mind the rules are the count isnt supposed to start til the other man goes to a neutral corner, liston did the right thing staying down, it was the refs mistake to stop the fight.

no dive.

[GJC]

he didnt take a dive.

he got legitimately dropped by a legitimate punch, he would have gotten to his feet but ali kep circling refusing to go to a neutral corner. keep in mind liston thought ali was crazy, literally a mental case. he thought ali was gonna hit him as he tried to get up (hes said so himself). also keep in mind the rules are the count isnt supposed to start til the other man goes to a neutral corner, liston did the right thing staying down, it was the refs mistake to stop the fight.

no dive.

Did seem to go down in instalments though and didn't seem to be off balance? Who knows!

[Vadrigar.]

Great post bro.

Did the punch land?? Yes

Was the punch powerful enough to KO a granite chinned Liston?? NO

The punch that ALi threw was a perfectly timed counter that caught Liston when he was unprepared to take it. It's generally thought that counter punches do more damage. After all it's the ones you don't see coming that get you. If you see a punch coming to tend to tighten your facial muscles and around the jaw.

Also if you look at Liston going down, he went down fluently without hesitation.

You can can see the muscles on his back rippling while absorbing the impact:

[boxing boy]

The punch that ALi threw was a perfectly timed counter that caught Liston when he was unprepared to take it. It's generally thought that counter punches do more damage. After all it's the ones you don't see coming that get you. If you see a punch coming to tend to tighten your facial muscles and around the jaw.

Also if you look at Liston going down, he went down fluently without hesitation.

You can can see the muscles on his back rippling while absorbing the impact:

That punch wasn't hard enough to crush a grape.It doesn't matter if it was a counter punch that Sonny never saw coming.Liston could take a good punch,and took hard counter punches from Cleveland Williams that hardly made him blink.I think Sonny was scared of getting shot in the ring,and that is why he took a dive.

It doesn't matter because Muhammad Ali already proved he could beat Liston in the first fight.Anybody that watched the first fight can tell it was on the up and up,and Ali just had his number(Styles make fights)and Liston had trouble hitting Ali.Liston could not KO Ali in the 5th round when Ali was half blind,and went all out to finish the Louiville lip.Right then i think he thought he had no chance to win the fight.Both eyes were swelling,he was cut,and was getting tired,while Ali seemed fresh as a daisy.Then Ali took complete control of the fight again in the 6th round.A tired,beaten,Sonny Liston with no chance of winning(Especially after his golden opportuninty in the 5th round) spit out his mouth piece and quit while looking at a fresh Cassius Clay ready to make a punching bag out of him.

People try to transfer the 2nd fight to the 1st fight and say Liston threw both fights.But i suggest they watch the first fight again,and it's obvious Liston got beat fair and square.