List your top 30 (super) heavyweights (201+ unlimited weight) of all time

[frankenfrank]

As for your last paragraph about 'inexact approximation of the
behavior of reality'. Do you really think the more educated of us might be impressed by this waffle?

I hoped the more educated of you would have known what physics is about.
I may have been wrong.

Why dont you go and watch a shed load of fight films and then try your luck.

I did , I do and I will. Yet you keep repeating I didn't , I don't and I should.

[Sugarj]

I dont think you know very much about physics. That waffle sounds like the mindless rap on a Shamen record. I doubt its your own composition!

I haven't got the time to deal with too many points at once, but in the case of Evander Holyfield.............he was never the most articulate even in the 80s..........which I am dubious of you actually existing in! But I'm not going to press the point further.

On McCall's punching power, yea again he had a good right hand and a fair whack..........but it didn't do much in world class due to his technical and emotional limitations. As for the names you've given.....your playing Top Trumps again, A who beat B who beat C..........most of which were fringe world class at best.

Have you ever watched the Akinwande fight? Henry was hardly amazing to begin with but he boxed very well that night but tired late, I was delighted to see him stopped by McCall. I never forgave him for his awful holding display against Lewis. I am actually more of a McCall fan that I'm letting on but he is far from top 30 for me.

Maybe its just me but I never thought Tyson was truely shocking with his elbows. Tyrell Biggs shipped a good one and I can remember a few others but never felt that they were vital to his wins. I dont remember the Holmes or Bruno fights being elbow ridden. No doubt, Tyson was dirty at times, but not in every fight!

As for your attitude on the fight film viewing. Good man.........keep watching and we might start agreeing on a few subjects in the future.

But no hard feelings, a bit of banter is a laugh!

[Joeyzagz]

And 2 reasons to why Vitali over Lewis :
(1) The fight was stopped due to cuts which may be caused by Lewis'
dreadlocks . Vitali never got a rematch , and he deserved it just because it
was caused by cuts , even if the cuts were caused by mere punching.
(2) Vitali was never humiliated (at least not as a pro , maybe even not as an
amateur) the way Lewis was twice.

And regarding reason #1 : yes , Puritty deserved a rematch with Vitali.
See , when Puritty met Wlad he brutally stopped him , the way a stoppage should look like. But Lewis' and Byrd's stoppages over Vitali as well as Vitali's stoppage over Puritty had nothing brutal about them , they should count much less if at all.

Nothing BrutAL?



It was the very definition of brutality, and Vitali at his peak could not overcome Lennox at his worst. If Vitali won in a rematch it wouldve meant as much as him beating Dempseys dead corpse. Proves nothing about what would happen prime 4 prime.

Rematches are done between fighters who are near the same age and of the same era. Lennox had been fighting outside of his era since Rahman II and had the right to retire whenever he pleased.

[boxing boy]

Actually there are 2 reasons to why Foreman over Ali :
(1) Dundee fetched the ropes to be loose and Ali used it to the max.
Foreman never got a rematch.
(2) Performance against common opponents .
While Norton , Frazier and Chuvalo shortened Ali's career and health , Foreman
ended matters quick with all of them.
With Lyle it can be argued who did better : Foreman whom finished him quicker
but was knocked down twice against , or Ali whom just stopped him late.
With Young both went through distance fights , but Ali did better by not going
down and winning the (very close) decision instead of losing the decision.
But all in is very clear who was the better man against mutual opponents.
Not to mention what any version of Foreman would have done to any version
of Leon Spinks , but this is a hypothetical (altbeit clear) argument .

Dundee did not make the ropes loose.The ropes were for a 20 foot ring,and it was only a 16 foot ring.Please quit making up things.

Normally the ring is 20-24 feet for Championship fights.So there are no ropes for a 16 foot ring.Foreman wanted a small ring so Muhammad Ali would have trouble dancing,and it would make it easy for him to cut off the ring.

Dundee did not make the ropes loose,period.Please stop making "excuses" for poor old George who got a 16 foot ring,and a softly padded canvas so Ali could not dance.

[Joeyzagz]

My top ten and what their record would be against others in the top 10, Prime 4 Prime.

1. Lennox (7-2) Loses to: ike/Foreman
2. Tyson (6-3) Loses to: Lennox/Foreman/Holyfield
3. Ali (6-3) Loses to: Lennox/Tyson/Wladimir
4. Foreman(6-3) Loses to: Ali/Holmes/Bowe
5. Ike (6-3) Loses to: Tyson/Ali/Foreman
6. Vitali (4-5) Loses to: Lennox/Tyson/Ali/Ike/Foreman
7. Bowe (4-5) Loses to: Lennox/Tyson/Ali/Foreman/Ike/Vitali
8. Holmes (2-7) Loses to: Lennox/Tyson/Ali/Foreman/Ike/Vitali/Bowe/Wlad
9. Wlad (2-7) Loses to: Lennox/tyson/Foreman/Ike/Vitali/Bowe/Holyfield
10. Holy (2-7) Loses to: Lennox/Ali/Foreman/Ike/Vitali/Bowe/Holmes

Top 20 after the top 10

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Sonny Liston
4. Joe Frazier
5. David Tua
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Buster Douglas
8. Floyd Patterson
9. David Haye
10. Michael Moorer
11. Chris Byrd
12. Shavers
13. Johnson
14. Baer
15. Tunney
16. Frank Bruno
17. Morrison
18. Norton
19. Bob Fitzsimmons(Look at his record, he ko'd 230, 260 300 lb guys)
20. Spinks

[Joeyzagz]

Here is mine :

1. Vitali Klitschko
2. George Foreman
3. Mike Tyson
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Larry Holmes
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Oliver McCall
9. David Tua
10. Evander Holyfield


11. Tony Tucker
12. Rid**** Bowe
13. James Douglas
14. Joe Louis
15. Joe Frazier
16. Chris Byrd

Based on YOUR criteria Ike Ibeabucci deserves to be in your top ten. He is responsible for stealing Tua's 0..

Ike also Destroyed a PRIME Chris Byrd in only 5 rounds. Both Klitschkos failed to KO a prime Byrd and Vitali was so bewildered he was forced to QUIT against him.

[boxing boy]

Dundee did not make the ropes loose.The ropes were for a 20 foot ring,and it was only a 16 foot ring.Please quit making up things.

Normally the ring is 20-24 feet for Championship fights.So there are no ropes for a 16 foot ring.Foreman wanted a small ring so Muhammad Ali would have trouble dancing,and it would make it easy for him to cut off the ring.

Dundee did not make the ropes loose,period.Please stop making "excuses" for poor old George who got a 16 foot ring,and a softly padded canvas so Ali could not dance.

Dundee talking about the ropes.I have heard him on several occasions talking about TIGHTENING the ropes.Here is just one qoute.



Well you know, when I heard I was going to be on your program—On the Ropes—I said to myself they’re going to ask me about the ropes in Zaire. (laughs) And I’m going to tell you, I tightened those stinking ropes at four o’clock in the afternoon but the fight wasn’t until 4am the next day. And you know what happened—the heat stretched the ropes. They were brand new hemp ropes. I didn’t want those ropes to be loose. People try to say that I designed the’ rope-a-dope’. I thought Muhammad was a dope to be on the ropes. If Foreman hit him with a forearm he would have went through the ropes. That ring was like six feet up in the air—he would have broke his back, the fight would have been all over but thank God it didn’t happen. He was so agile, and so quick, and so smart—he really did some good stuff.”

[frankenfrank]

I dont think you know very much about physics. That waffle sounds like the mindless rap on a Shamen record. I doubt its your own composition!

Damn ! you got me about this one ! But wasn't it Lady Gaga ?
All physicians learned their trade from the Shamen , but I am more of a Lady Gaga (and many others') fan. Maybe that's why I am not a physicist.
I was somewhat wrong in what I wrote though , physics is not a global approximation to reality , each one of its branches is a local approximation of reality in each of reality's scopes.
Maybe it was in a Depeche Mode record , don't get me in my word this time !

I haven't got the time to deal with too many points at once, but in the case of Evander Holyfield.............he was never the most articulate even in the 80s..........which I am dubious of you actually existing in!

Wow ! you really know my lifeline hour by hour . Are you some kind of a wizard ? You caught me in my not watching fights , you caught me violating the Sahmen's copyrights and now you know I was born post 1989 , though I was born in 1983.

But I'm not going to press the point further.

On McCall's punching power, yea again he had a good right hand and a fair whack..........but it didn't do much in world class due to his technical and emotional limitations. As for the names you've given.....your playing Top Trumps again, A who beat B who beat C..........most of which were fringe world class at best.

McCall hit harder than Louis , Marciano , Fitzsimmons , Baer , Cleveland Williams and Ingemar Johnson . Harder than Tyson ? I don't know , I never claimed it , but this is another thing you assume about me , so your crystal ball could probably quote me stating it.

Have you ever watched the Akinwande fight?

First time the answer to such a question of yours is no.

Henry was hardly amazing to begin with but he boxed very well that night but tired late, I was delighted to see him stopped by McCall. I never forgave him for his awful holding display against Lewis. I am actually more of a McCall fan that I'm letting on but he is far from top 30 for me.

So post your top 30 for comical value , the thread is about top 30 and above HW/SHW H2H lists. Do you really have a top 30 you ever thought about ?
And maybe Akiwande was not a brilliant P4P fighter , but he would have beaten almost every man in your top 30 , I don't really doubt it.
Akiwande was very big , and not bad , yet only McCall managed to stop him.

Maybe its just me but I never thought Tyson was truely shocking with his elbows. Tyrell Biggs shipped a good one and I can remember a few others but never felt that they were vital to his wins. I dont remember the Holmes or Bruno fights being elbow ridden. No doubt, Tyson was dirty at times, but not in every fight!

"Knock it off man" can you tell me from which Tyson fight did this quote come from and who said it ?

As for your attitude on the fight film viewing. Good man.........keep watching and we might start agreeing on a few subjects in the future.

But no hard feelings, a bit of banter is a laugh!

Maybe you should refresh your mind by reviewing (but not in fast forward) some of the fights you argue with me about.
and where can I get Puritty-Wlad , Vitali-Puritty , Rahman-Puritty ,
Rahman-Sanders , Douglas-McCall , Norris-McCall , Norris-Tucker (#2) ,
Foreman-Norton , McCall's and Puritty's early losses , Tubes-Sanders ,
Rahman-Tua 1 , Maskaev Rahman 1,2 full .

[Sugarj]

'Maybe you should refresh your mind by reviewing (but not in fast forward) some of the fights you argue with me about.
and where can I get Puritty-Wlad , Vitali-Puritty , Rahman-Puritty ,
Rahman-Sanders , Douglas-McCall , Norris-McCall , Norris-Tucker (#2) ,
Foreman-Norton , McCall's and Puritty's early losses , Tubes-Sanders ,
Rahman-Tua 1 , Maskaev Rahman 1,2 full . '


Hi Frankenfrank,

I'll deal with the rest of your post later, but I wouldn't have said that I've actually argued with you in respect of the contents of any fight other than in respect of Tyson's fouling. Granted......the man was guilty of being a dirty fighter. I just dont remember the Holmes or Bruno fights being particularly elbow ridden. I've got a feeling Tyson might have been warned early against Holmes, I've seen that fight in the last year, but cant say I was counting fouls. I never got the impression that a Tyson win wouldn't have happened had he not fouled his opponent.

I have watched Holmes vs McCall in the last month by way of coincidence.

As for fight films, there are a number of decent DVD providers. I used to use a company called 'Europes Number 1' but I now use a private individual who used to trade on Ebay. Granted, the distribution of fight films is probably illegal........but I dont feel bad about it because you're not able to get the fights any other way! If you buy the UK Boxing magazine Boxing Monthly, there are a number of DVD suppliers who opperate at a reasonable price.

[frankenfrank]

Nothing BrutAL?



It was the very definition of brutality, and Vitali at his peak could not overcome Lennox at his worst. If Vitali won in a rematch it wouldve meant as much as him beating Dempseys dead corpse. Proves nothing about what would happen prime 4 prime.

Rematches are done between fighters who are near the same age and of the same era. Lennox had been fighting outside of his era since Rahman II and had the right to retire whenever he pleased.

Brutal is KO , 3 knockdowns (or more) TKO , a TKO due to the fighter losing his balance , etc. This is more of a delicate scratching job.
The way Lewis lost his fights for example is brutal.