List your top 30 (super) heavyweights (201+ unlimited weight) of all time

[frankenfrank]

You've already proven repeatedly that you have no credibility and therefore cannot be taken seriously. So why on Earth would I make a serious reply to a poster who has proven himself to be willfully ******ed? It's much more satisfying to simply make fun of your ******ity and be done with it.

Poet

Poet's admission of trolling (deliberately posting not seriously).

[StarshipTrooper]

Well, this is his usual bull**** arguments and his way of despising Ali and nuthugging Vitali. Coupled with his weight fetish.

I suggest you don't lose anymore time with this person, because no matter how strong people's counter arguments are, they will never get him to come to his senses, as he is totally blinded by his own hatred and bias.

The more sense people speak to him, the more nonsense he will come back with.

As they say:

"Don't bring water to the vilain's mill"

Also know in these parts as "DON'T FEED THE TROLL"

Poet

[frankenfrank]

Theres just too much to wade through in your last post to me Frankenfrank:

The time it took you to reply made it look as if I ignored you , or as if you could not find the thread or something.

On the subject of Mesi, failing a brain scan is not necessarily being 'shot'. Barrera & Wayne McCullough have failed scans before clearly having fights in which they were not shot. The brain is very complex, repeated punches can affect many aspects............personality, reflexes, motor skills, memory.

So they were shot. Having (a relevant) brain damage automatically makes one
shot , regardless of age and much more than some chronological data.

How you can disagree with me that the Holyfield fights with Bowe took more out of Bowe is beyond me. Bowe goes on to be battered by Golota, whereas Holyfield beats Tyson twice, KOs Moorer, goes the distance with Lewis twice, Ruiz three times.......and the rest! Dear oh dear!

Holyfield was 5 years older than Bowe and head a for on him in wear and tear before the fights that he really lost and lost badly in the last.
Combine it with the fact that Bowe hit harder than Holyfield , and that neither
man was a defensive genius , and Bowe outlanded Holyfield in all of their fights and understand why
Bowe was much less shot after their trilogy than Holyfield was.
Holyfield was regarded as being post to many wars even before their trilogy even started. If Bowe achieved less after it , it was not due to him being so shot , it was because of him being a lesser warrior overall.
Just like Ibeabuchi shined for a brief period on the expense of his future (health) , but unlike Ibeabuchi vs. Tua , Bowe really beat Holyfield so you can't even say he took more damage.

Bruno wasn't a giant in the Valuev terms but he was one big chap, he made McCall look small that night! I dont disrespect McCall's punch power, he had a good right hand............but didn't land it too often in world class. Comparing the Tyson who destroyed the 38 year old Holmes with the McCall who edged a 47 year old Holmes puts McCall's power in perspective.

You should have known it was not because of Power , and never mention
this comparison you did in this context :
Holmes stopped James Smith twice and Tyson did not and was not even
close to it , so Holmes had more punching power than Tyson ?
Tyson used elbows against Bruno , McCall didn't.

I'll look at the rest later after tea!

But what concerns me about alot of your recent posts Frankenfrank is that you seem to look at boxing in a computer game / or top trumps mentality. Saying things like fighter A knocked down fighter B, where fighter C has a harder punch than fighter A, does not mean fighter C would knock down fighter B also.

I am not going exactly by this .

The more boxing films you watch the more you'll learn.

How do you know how many boxing films I have watched ?

Compiling a top 30 head to head list is virtually impossible. The reason for this is because you get to a point where styles get in the way. For example you might consider that Holmes would beat Foreman, but Tyson may beat Holmes, but Foreman may in turn beat Tyson. So who would you rank highest?

That's what opponent of higher degrees are for.
And the 3 you chose in this example are ranked close and hard to sort , but
the list should be globally good approximation of reality , as exact local formula is virtually impossible , Just like the laws and formulas of physics , including the most recent and modern are a mere inexact approximation of the
behavior of reality.

[RockyB]

not too sure what you are asking for, but assuming it is who i think is the best, that could beat the most fighters..

i'll go with these guys from what i have seen ATM:

1. George Foreman
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Joe Louis
5. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Mike Tyson
7. Vitali Klitschko
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Joe Frazier

im kinda new to boxing, (3-4 years..) so i have to educate myself a little more to make a real good list. but this is what i got for now, couldnt do a top 30

[frankenfrank]

Also know in these parts as "DON'T FEED THE TROLL"

Poet

The reason why I had to temporarily (do not know until when) put the troll on ignore.
For the record : this is one of Boxing Scene's biggest advantages over another forums .
Ignore function exists in other forums as well , but this is the only place I know where it efficiently and effectively prevents trolling by preventing them from posting in the ignorer's threads.
I saw how it is where it is not like here , and this is much better with it than without it. The Good significantly surpasses the bad.

[frankenfrank]

not too sure what you are asking for, but assuming it is who i think is the best, that could beat the most fighters..

i'll go with these guys from what i have seen ATM:

1. George Foreman
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Joe Louis
5. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Mike Tyson
7. Vitali Klitschko
8. Lennox Lewis
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Joe Frazier

im kinda new to boxing, (3-4 years..) so i have to educate myself a little more to make a real good list. but this is what i got for now, couldnt do a top 30

You should note the fighters Louis fought whom you may have or may have not seen him fight against were either much smaller than himself (Conn , Charles , Pastor , Marciano , Galento (yes the short and fat Tony Galento) and many more) , much unskilled (Buddy Baer , Abe Simon) , superbly chinny (Primo Carnerra) , shot (Jack Sharkey , Schmelling by the rematch's time) or some combination of the above.
Yet Louis managed to get hurt by most of them and lost to a smaller older man : Schmelling first fight.
Louis was also given a robbery decision over Walcott in their first fight , but all in all , H2H , should still be above Walcott in SHW/HW H2H lists as is the case in mine because of their mutual outcomes against Abe Simon and because of their rematch.
Louis however , would have been devoured by Tua , or abused by Vitali Klitschko or Ali.
He would have probably been massacred by Tyson as well .
And there is no reason to believe he should be a big favorite over Corrie Sanders (watch Sanders-Wlad).
As I read not once : Louis was there to be hit.
Another thing is Louis' chin was also not one of the best , and the same for his punching power. But this comparison is unfair to him , because Louis is a cruiserweight (in the 200lbs sense) , and weight classes were separated from each other for a reason.
Many fighters in my list may have had Louis' number.
I did not even mentioned Foreman .
And as good as Frazier was , what chances do you give him against a Klitschko or even Valuev , or Tua , or Cooney or even Michael Grant for that matter ? I did put both of these fighters in my top 15 however .

[Sugarj]

I dont know where to start with you Frankenfrank,

Your clearly a keen fan, but some of the conclusions you draw are so far from what fairly experienced amateur boxing historians leads me to the conclusion that you are fairly young, new to the sport, or just looking for arguments.

My conclusions about your lack of fight film viewing stem from the fighters shown in your list. Ranking Liston based on his two Ali fights and the two Patterson fights demonstrates this also.

I'm sure you are a nice chap, but you're going to get laughed at by genuine fight historians and those who have watched alot of fight films. Perhaps you will find a disciple or two......but you're not doing yourself any favours.

As for Holmes, no he doesn't punch harder than Tyson just because he stopped Bonecrusher and Tyson didn't. Its just that you seem to rate McCall's power so highly when......really he didn't KO many of note. The distinction between Tyson's power and McCall's power is evident from watching the fights. McCall hit Larry with every punch in his arsenal.

As for Tyson's elbows being critical to both of his wins over Bruno and of your opinions over Bowe and Holyfield...........I despair. Like it or not Holyfield had alot more to give from 1996 onwards than Bowe and Bowe was clearly out of sorts in both fights with Golota. The slurred speach confirms some form of brain trauma. Even if he had prepared for Golota well the damage may have been done by then.

As for your last paragraph about 'inexact approximation of the
behavior of reality'. Do you really think the more educated of us might be impressed by this waffle?

Why dont you go and watch a shed load of fight films and then try your luck.

[frankenfrank]

I watched dozens of fights , and yes , I look for more , I told you which I currently look for.
McCall KO'd Maskaev quicker than anyone else (Tua included) in Maskaev's prime. Rahman tried twice but was stopped himself twice by Maskaev.
McCall KO'd Akiwande (and remained the only one to stop him to this date) despite Lewis tried as well.
McCall stopped a prime Lewis .
McCall stopped Yanqui Diaz (whom stopped a young and prime Juan Carlos Gomez in 1 round) and Darroll Wilson (whom stopped Shannon Briggs).
McCall knocked down a 7 years younger than himself and a much bigger Lance Whitaker.
McCall knocked down Mike Tyson in sparring.
And was the first to stop a young Bruce Seldon (just before Bowe did it).
Some accomplishments for a fighter with a mere OK punching power .
In the end of the day he still got the W against the still dangerous Larry Holmes , Jesse Fergusson and David Jaco.

[frankenfrank]

As for Holmes, no he doesn't punch harder than Tyson just because he stopped Bonecrusher and Tyson didn't. Its just that you seem to rate McCall's power so highly when......really he didn't KO many of note. The distinction between Tyson's power and McCall's power is evident from watching the fights. McCall hit Larry with every punch in his arsenal.

Yet his arsenal lacked the famous Tyson's elbows.

[frankenfrank]

As for Tyson's elbows being critical to both of his wins over Bruno and of your opinions over Bowe and Holyfield...........I despair. Like it or not Holyfield had alot more to give from 1996 onwards than Bowe and Bowe was clearly out of sorts in both fights with Golota. The slurred speach confirms some form of brain trauma. Even if he had prepared for Golota well the damage may have been done by then.

Did you hear Holyfield's speech after his third fight with Bowe ?
And I may cite his wins over Tyson and Mercer (and others) due to his using his head.
Golotta was simply the only skilled professional close to his size that Bowe ever met.
I do not claim he did not have a brain trauma , but how do you know Holyfield had less of it by that time ?