Al Jones , was he avoided in the late 60's ?

[frankenfrank]

A big fighter , the wikified part of boxrec tells he had recurring hand problems later in his career , a stoppage win against Cleveland Williams and a draw against Zora Folley will impress some here , but no fights against either Chuvalo , Quarry , Patterson (whom I was told avoided many of the contenders at the time he was champion at least , if not later too) , Bonavena , Ellis , Ali , Frazier .
He was a sparring partner of Ali and Ellis and had the same manager (Dundee) ,
so , how come he never faced the rest of the names I've mentioned here ?

[JAB5239]

A big fighter , the wikified part of boxrec tells he had recurring hand problems later in his career , a stoppage win against Cleveland Williams and a draw against Zora Folley will impress some here , but no fights against either Chuvalo , Quarry , Patterson (whom I was told avoided many of the contenders at the time he was champion at least , if not later too) , Bonavena , Ellis , Ali , Frazier .
He was a sparring partner of Ali and Ellis and had the same manager (Dundee) ,
so , how come he never faced the rest of the names I've mentioned here ?

Most likely bad management. Roy Williams is another fighter from the 70's who Larry Holmes said could have been a top fighter if managed right, but just couldn't catch a break. In his book Holmes says William (a former Ali sparring partner) gave Ali as good as he got until Ali finally kicked him out of his camp after the Foreman fight and a dispute about money. There are likely dozens of fighters who could have had great careers. But in boxing the right management is as important as the fighting itself. How much greater could the Marquez brothers have been had they had better management earlier in their careers?

[frankenfrank]

Most likely bad management. Roy Williams is another fighter from the 70's who Larry Holmes said could have been a top fighter if managed right, but just couldn't catch a break. In his book Holmes says William (a former Ali sparring partner) gave Ali as good as he got until Ali finally kicked him out of his camp after the Foreman fight and a dispute about money. There are likely dozens of fighters who could have had great careers. But in boxing the right management is as important as the fighting itself. How much greater could the Marquez brothers have been had they had better management earlier in their careers?

So Angelo Dundee was a bad manager ?
He managed Jimmy Ellis and Muhammad Ali .
And Marquez ducked Hamed and not vice versa , he was Hamed's mandatory and chose to reject the fight.
And whose fault is it that Rafael Marquez turned pro at 20 , lost his debut by KO and less than 3 years later lost again by KO , and then less than 2 years later lost again by KO , and it does not even include his stoppage loss to Vasquez (his fourth stoppage loss in 5 losses) ?

[Bright-Eyes]

It was during Patterson's title reign that he was accused of avoiding other fighters.His competition after he lost the title until the end of the career was very good.

[JAB5239]

So Angelo Dundee was a bad manager ?
He managed Jimmy Ellis and Muhammad Ali .

Who said Dundee was a bad manager? Fact is fighters fall to the wayside for a variety of reasons. Obviously Dundee couldn't get him the best fights for one reason or another. Why? I don't know. One reason could be they couldn't afford to pay a top fighter enough to go against him. No one is going to risk their reputation for short money, and rightfully so. History provides plenty of examples of this.

And Marquez ducked Hamed and not vice versa , he was Hamed's mandatory and chose to reject the fight.
And whose fault is it that Rafael Marquez turned pro at 20 , lost his debut by KO and less than 3 years later lost again by KO , and then less than 2 years later lost again by KO , and it does not even include his stoppage loss to Vasquez (his fourth stoppage loss in 5 losses) ?

Both brothers were horribly managed up until just a few years ago. Brush up on your history and you will find this out. Just see JMM's teams decision to pass on the Pac rematch for what, $750,000 and instead go into another fighters backyard for a mere $30,000 and get the title taken. Not fighting Hamed was another bone headed move.

[sonnyboyx2]

you set off the topic on Al Jones and start almost immediately talking about the Marquez brothers?

Jones was not avoided by any top fighters, he would have been destroyed if he had ever been in a position to face Quarry, Patterson, Chuvalo or Bonavena, he was nothing more than a decent sparring partner and was never a top ranked contender.

[frankenfrank]

It was during Patterson's title reign that he was accused of avoiding other fighters.His competition after he lost the title until the end of the career was very good.

Agree , it is what I thought.

[JAB5239]

Agree , it is what I thought.

What you thought? Are you insinuating Patterson intentionally ducked Jones?

[frankenfrank]

What you thought? Are you insinuating Patterson intentionally ducked Jones?

I don't know and don't claim it , but it is possible despite of what I thought.

[JAB5239]

I don't know and don't claim it , but it is possible despite of what I thought.

No, not really. Patterson couldn't have avoided him as champ because he lost his title in '62 and Jones didn't turn pro til '64. And its unlikely he avoided him after that since he was fighting elite world class comp and Jones was fighting has beens or ham and eggers. Two different levels of fighters here. Jones would have had to prove himself before being considered worthy.