How Great is Sam Langford?

[Dr. Z]

It was not the money as he made little vs. Jim battling Johnson and NOTHING vs Frank Moran. You see the fights were in France and they wanted to see Jeannette or Langford in the ring. Politics be gone! The French stripped Johnson of his title for not fighting them. He did not make that much v O'brien, Ross, and other crap fights he had . Surely he had offers to except other fights and is folly to assume all of them was the promoter's fault, and equally folly to assume the fighters themselves would deny the chance for a big pay day and the title. He got paid vs Jeffries ofcourse. Show me what he made vs the above men and I'll show you the offers were there to fight the talent.

I disagree Johnson had bad competition in title fights and does not rate as average in comparison to tenured lineal champions. Men who had a few title fights. Not even close.

Jack Johnson had a signed offer to fight Sam Langford, he back out of the fight and never fought Langford, Jeanette, Mcvey, Smith, McCarty or Wills the talent from 1909-1915 during his title run. What was his best two wins?! In your opinion there are who? Not as good as prime version of these men ( 1909-1915 ) that much I'm sure of!

Whoe whoe!! back up the truck! Politics? promoters? Johnson did not try to make less money did he? Sometimes the short money looks good, you fight an opponent for it. Why was Johnson in France to begin with? I don't have to show you anything unless you are telling me Johnson deliberately fought guys for less money because he wanted to make less money. Johnson's risk assesment is not something I am aware of... I doubt anyone is.

You can disagree but if you look at all the champs and their competition aside from the 70's and 90's we don't see much. So we tend to want to look for an average understanding of skills displayed in the ring when we can. I don't get into discussions about these contracts. They lead nowhere. I look at human nature, the general level of talent, the options of a fighter, and most important, when available I look at film.

Hold the phone. I am saying Johnson had a contract offers and even a signed contract to fight Langford. He also could have made more money fights names such as Langford and Jeannette in France. Or in other areas of the world. His title competition was well below Jeffries, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Frazier, Homes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Klitschko and Klitschko. Johnson's title opponents rate last , not average as you say and he didn't do well in the fights in several instances some of which are on film.

We can talk about the films and him not doing well in title matches in another thread. I have some pretty good data on that, as I have researched the history of fighters form 1892- 1930 well. I say again I can show you he's not only over rated, he has performed worse than you think form 1909-1915.

[Dr. Z]

You are debating with a man who has a long proven history of pathological hatred against Johnson.

On the Classic Forum a poster once asked him if Johnson had had sexual relations with his Great Grand Mother, as they could see no other justification for such phobic ,and vitriolic hate.

He will turn unrelated threads into hate fests against Johnson given the slightest opportunity, that's why Classic banned him!

Shut up already with your lies, double standards, and backward psychology. You're rooting interests for a wife beating man, some who even attacked the sickly 120 pound man are well documented. Why do you greet certain heavyweight champions of a certain complexity with antipathy. I think I know why and you admit giving to groups that are on the terrors list and being a cult member of the free masons. This will be repeated any time you try to slander my character.

I offer facts and insight on these who would like to learn. You were banned, with your multiple id's from that " Classic section. "

[Ivich]

Whoe whoe!! back up the truck! Politics? promoters? Johnson did not try to make less money did he? Sometimes the short money looks good, you fight an opponent for it. Why was Johnson in France to begin with? I don't have to show you anything unless you are telling me Johnson deliberately fought guys for less money because he wanted to make less money. Johnson's risk assesment is not something I am aware of... I doubt anyone is.

You can disagree but if you look at all the champs and their competition aside from the 70's and 90's we don't see much. So we tend to want to look for an average understanding of skills displayed in the ring when we can. I don't get into discussions about these contracts. They lead nowhere. I look at human nature, the general level of talent, the options of a fighter, and most important, when available I look at film.

Johnson signed to defend his title in NY against Jeannette twice,the NY AC vetoed both attempts and threatened any promoter who put on the fight with their licence being suspended.
This is a proven fact.
Johnson signed to defend his title against McVey and Langford in Australia.Hugh McIntosh the promoter cancelled the fights when Johnson jumped bail and Aussie public opinion ,whipped up by the church turned against Johnson.A proven fact.

The promoters of these attempted fights .The McMahon Bros and Hugh D McIntosh made public statements in the newspapers confirming this ,as did the Chairman of the NYAC.
Joe Jeannette also went into print with a statement saying," I do not blame Jack for the fight falling through it was the Commission that stopped it happening."
Again fact.
Johnson was destitute when he signed to fight Battling Jim Johnson he had not fought for a year and a half and needed money badly, he had no guaranteed purse for the defence and did not clear much over $1000.
Johnson had a very good purse for the Moran fight but the money was tied up in litigation as WW1 broke out and neither fighter saw a dime of their purses .
These are all verified facts and I've posted the parties concerned public statements on this forum before.

[QueensburyRules]

Johnson signed to defend his title in NY against Jeannette twice,the NY AC vetoed both attempts and threatened any promoter who put on the fight with their licence being suspended.
This is a proven fact.
Johnson signed to defend his title against McVey and Langford in Australia.Hugh McIntosh the promoter cancelled the fights when Johnson jumped bail and Aussie public opinion ,whipped up by the church turned against Johnson.A proven fact.

The promoters of these attempted fights .The McMahon Bros and Hugh D McIntosh made public statements in the newspapers confirming this ,as did the Chairman of the NYAC.
Joe Jeannette also went into print with a statement saying," I do not blame Jack for the fight falling through it was the Commision that stopped it happening."
Again fact.
Johnson was destitute when he signed to fight Battling Jim Johnson he had not fought for a year and a half and needed money badly, he had no guaranteed purse for the defence and did not clear much over $1000.
Johnson had a very good purse for the Moran fight but the money was tied up in litigation as WW1 broke out and neither fighter saw a dime of their purses .
These are all verified facts and I've posted the parties concerned public statements on this forum before.

- - Conveniently forget to mention JJ stripped by the French of his title for not fighting Jeannette or Sam in Paris where US jurisdiction ends and great mixed fights begin. Sam and Jeannette fought a classic for that title that Sam won convincingly, so convincing that JJ still wouldn't fight him.

So Sam ditched that title to return to the US and the rest history wif JJ cold****ed by Willard in Havana.

[Rosco3387]

Jack Johnson had a signed offer to fight Sam Langford, he back out of the fight and never fought Langford, Jeanette, Mcvey, Smith, McCarty or Wills the talent from 1909-1915 during his title run. What was his best two wins?! In your opinion there are who? Not as good as prime version of these men ( 1909-1915 ) that much I'm sure of!


Hold the phone. I am saying Johnson had a contract offers and even a signed contract to fight Langford. He also could have made more money fights names such as Langford and Jeannette in France. Or in other areas of the world. His title competition was well below Jeffries, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Frazier, Homes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and Klitschko and Klitschko. Johnson's title opponents rate last , not average as you say and he didn't do well in the fights in several instances some of which are on film.

We can talk about the films and him not doing well in title matches in another thread. I have some pretty good data on that, as I have researched the history of fighters form 1892- 1930 well. I say again I can show you he's not only over rated, he has performed worse than you think form 1909-1915.

heres the problem with these so called "contract offers." It is something I get on Queen b about as well: We were not privy to dealings... we do not know the details of these contracts and must reconstruct them. One element that IMO stands out is human nature which would demand that a fighter take fights that produced the best outcome for them. Are fighters scared of opponents? Debatable. Do fighters and their management make calculated decisions? Most definitely. Ray Robinson never faced Burley for a reason... And Johnson fought these guys.. A few times depending, so it is not like he avoided them perpetually. Nobody would claim jones avoided Toney because he would not give him a rematch... You seem to forget that aspect of the situation.

[Dr. Z]

heres the problem with these so called "contract offers." It is something I get on Queen b about as well: We were not privy to dealings... we do not know the details of these contracts and must reconstruct them. One element that IMO stands out is human nature which would demand that a fighter take fights that produced the best outcome for them. Are fighters scared of opponents? Debatable. Do fighters and their management make calculated decisions? Most definitely. Ray Robinson never faced Burley for a reason... And Johnson fought these guys.. A few times depending, so it is not like he avoided them perpetually. Nobody would claim jones avoided Toney because he would not give him a rematch... You seem to forget that aspect of the situation.

??? He did not face one man close to their prime, Langford was 20 and says under 150 pounds, Jeannnete took up boxing late and was 0-3 when he first meet Johnson and Sam MCvey was a teenager! No fights with them in their prime years, no title shots, nothing. I said Johnson signed and offer to fight Langford. I don't have to be privy for that. And there were multiple offers in the press for him to make these fights. The rest is just white noise.

Sorry but Roy Jones won easy over Toney and both men were in their primes. Toney didn't deserve a match, and as far as I know there was not demand for one.

The Sam Langford's case is different.

[JakeTheBoxer]

One of the best fighters ever. His record is amazing.

[QueensburyRules]

heres the problem with these so called "contract offers." It is something I get on Queen b about as well: We were not privy to dealings... we do not know the details of these contracts and must reconstruct them. One element that IMO stands out is human nature which would demand that a fighter take fights that produced the best outcome for them. Are fighters scared of opponents? Debatable. Do fighters and their management make calculated decisions? Most definitely. Ray Robinson never faced Burley for a reason... And Johnson fought these guys.. A few times depending, so it is not like he avoided them perpetually. Nobody would claim jones avoided Toney because he would not give him a rematch... You seem to forget that aspect of the situation.

- - Toney outgrew Roy on the timeline. Roy was never a real heavy, but he made the 190+ limit for Ruiz because that was near his fightweight at LH.

Meanwhile, Toney the only fighter I know who outgrew the heavy division.

True story! He was a nightmare banned at all you can eat buffets and closed down more than one chicken bucket place. Battered the plumbing of every place he dined as well, ie as multitalented on the intake as well as the outlet, almost enough for liftoff!!!

[Rosco3387]

??? He did not face one man close to their prime, Langford was 20 and says under 150 pounds, Jeannnete took up boxing late and was 0-3 when he first meet Johnson and Sam MCvey was a teenager! No fights with them in their prime years, no title shots, nothing. I said Johnson signed and offer to fight Langford. I don't have to be privy for that. And there were multiple offers in the press for him to make these fights. The rest is just white noise.

Sorry but Roy Jones won easy over Toney and both men were in their primes. Toney didn't deserve a match, and as far as I know there was not demand for one.

The Sam Langford's case is different.

I don't play that game... You can qualify almost any win, or loss, in boxing. Now, if you show me that fighter A broke his hand before the fight, with x ray proof, and fought one handed throughout, and was soundly beaten, something along those lines? Then yes, the win should be qualified. But this guy being younger, older, etc its all part of the game and equals out in the end.

So you do not care that Toney had not trained properly, had been on a bit of a binge? Good! then you get my point, agree, or disagree. Johnson fought many fellow Black fighters multiple times, which also affects the ability to match an opponent.

I think it takes a certain pronounced pattern and trend to illuminate what you accuse Johnson of doing regarding Sam... Some may buy it, I tend to have a hard time accusing a man of ducking another when they had fought, again... unless there were extenuating circumstances... In evaluating Mayweather for example, I think it sticks that he never fought an ATG at prime, and chose his opposition carefully. But Jones, often accused of the same thing, fought fellow great fighters, so I find the idea that he was as "choosy" as Mayweather, false. Its just my opinion... But your accusing Johnson of ducking some fellows he fought multiple times! and he fought at least all of them once! That is kind of crazy logic... It just does not hold up to common sense, and as a famous judge once said, "if it does not make sense, it probably is not true." (thank you Judge Judy!).

[Rosco3387]

- - Toney outgrew Roy on the timeline. Roy was never a real heavy, but he made the 190+ limit for Ruiz because that was near his fightweight at LH.

Meanwhile, Toney the only fighter I know who outgrew the heavy division.

True story! He was a nightmare banned at all you can eat buffets and closed down more than one chicken bucket place. Battered the plumbing of every place he dined as well, ie as multitalented on the intake as well as the outlet, almost enough for liftoff!!!