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  • #51
    Originally posted by Ivich View Post
    Johnson signed to defend his title in NY against Jeannette twice,the NY AC vetoed both attempts and threatened any promoter who put on the fight with their licence being suspended.
    This is a proven fact.
    Johnson signed to defend his title against McVey and Langford in Australia.Hugh McIntosh the promoter cancelled the fights when Johnson jumped bail and Aussie public opinion ,whipped up by the church turned against Johnson.A proven fact.

    The promoters of these attempted fights .The McMahon Bros and Hugh D McIntosh made public statements in the newspapers confirming this ,as did the Chairman of the NYAC.
    Joe Jeannette also went into print with a statement saying," I do not blame Jack for the fight falling through it was the Commission that stopped it happening."
    Again fact.
    Johnson was destitute when he signed to fight Battling Jim Johnson he had not fought for a year and a half and needed money badly, he had no guaranteed purse for the defence and did not clear much over $1000.
    Johnson had a very good purse for the Moran fight but the money was tied up in litigation as WW1 broke out and neither fighter saw a dime of their purses .
    These are all verified facts and I've posted the parties concerned public statements on this forum before.
    These various facts regarding contracts made, etc are such that in their totality it would IMO, take extraordinary proof to accuse Johnson of running scared rather than face any fighter that would make a moneyed fight. When you combine that situation with the fact that Johnson had to endure fighting men from a limited, hyper talented cluster, (Black Heavyweights), it makes the contention that he feared a fellow fighter enough to leave money on the table...dubious.

    Contracts are often broken, things fall through, etc... Virtually most of Roman circa to English common law revolved around heredity rights/ownership of Real Properties, and CONTRACT disputes! That tells me, along with so many other tales of whoa about fighters and contracts, that Johnson's actions are not by any means atypical.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by Rosco3387 View Post

      These various facts regarding contracts made, etc are such that in their totality it would IMO, take extraordinary proof to accuse Johnson of running scared rather than face any fighter that would make a moneyed fight. When you combine that situation with the fact that Johnson had to endure fighting men from a limited, hyper talented cluster, (Black Heavyweights), it makes the contention that he feared a fellow fighter enough to leave money on the table...dubious.

      Contracts are often broken, things fall through, etc... Virtually most of Roman circa to English common law revolved around heredity rights/ownership of Real Properties, and CONTRACT disputes! That tells me, along with so many other tales of whoa about fighters and contracts, that Johnson's actions are not by any means atypical.
      Johnson did sign to fight Langford at the National Sporting Club in Covent Garden this was in early1908 when he was just another leading contender and not yet Champion.He was made to wait in the lobby while Peggy Bettinson the club's manager and promoter concluded the deal with Sam Fitzpatrick ,Johnson's then manager,once they had agreed terms Johnson was presented with the contract to sign.Johnson and Fitzpatrick were on the floor financially and in no position to dictate terms,he signed for the *****rdly sum of £3000 his travel and training expenses to come out of that,the NSC was notorious for its parsimony.

      Johnson then had to accept £3000 as his purse to fight Burns who demanded and got $30.000.After Johnson beat Burns he decided as champion he wanted $30,000 to defend against Langford ,the NSC told him to go **** himself,and Johnson, rightly or wrongly considered himself free from any obligation to honour his existing contract with them.

      Its interesting that Jim Jeffries was offered the job of refereeing the Burns v Johnson fight,but his price of $5000 was too high.

      Jeffries made this public statement after Johnson's victory.
      "Tommy Burns has his price $30,000.
      Burns had sold his pride,the pride of the Caucasian race.

      The Canadian never will be forgiven for allowing the title of the best physical man in the world to be wrested from its keeper,by a member of the African race.
      I refused time and again to meet Johnson,while I was holding the title,even though I knew I could beat him.
      I would never allow a Negro a chance to fight for the world's championship and I advise all other champions to follow the same course."
      So Jeffries was happy to officiate as the referee ,providing his price was met, [nearly as much as Johnson got for actually fighting,] but condemned Burns for defending against Johnson when his price was met!
      Rather hypocritical I think.


      As you have observed this contract breaking was hardly a unique situation.
      Tommy Farr was supposed to have fought Schmeling but when a title shot at Louis was dangled in front of him he jumped at it.
      Ray Robinson was notorious for holding up promoters at the last minute demanding mor e money in his dressing room and refusing to get into the ring unless it was forthcoming,with a housefull of punters ,promoters usually succumbed to his black mail,[no pun intended.]


      Braddock reneged on a contract to defend his title against Schmeling who would probably have beaten him and become the first man to regain the heavyweight crown. Instead Braddock's manager negotiated a much more lucrative deal with Mike Jacobs in which Braddock would receive10% of the proceeds of Jacobs heavyweight title fights for the next 10 years.Schmeling was sidelined and Louis got the title shot.Jacobs was over a barrel, Braddock had the title and to get it and consolidate his promotional empire Jacobs had to pay through the nose for the chance.
      Last edited by Ivich; 10-31-2022, 12:43 PM.
      Rosco3387 Rosco3387 likes this.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by Ivich View Post
        Johnson did sign to fight Langford at the National Sporting Club in Covent Garden this was in early1908 when he was just another leading contender and not yet Champion.He was made to wait in the lobby while Peggy Bettinson the club's manager and promoter concluded the deal with Sam Fitzpatrick ,Johnson's then manager,once they had agreed terms Johnson was presented with the contract to sign.Johnson and Fitzpatrick were on the floor financially and in no position to dictate terms,he signed for the *****rdly sum of £3000 his travel and training expenses to come out of that,the NSC was notorious for its parsimony.

        Johnson then had to accept £3000 as his purse to fight Burns who demanded and got $30.000.After Johnson beat Burns he decided as champion he wanted $30,000 to defend against Langford ,the NSC told him to go **** himself,and Johnson, rightly or wrongly considered himself free from any obligation to honour his existing contract with them.

        Its interesting that Jim Jeffries was offered the job of refereeing the Burns v Johnson fight,but his price of $5000 was too high.

        Jeffries made this public statement after Johnson's victory.
        "Tommy Burns has his price $30,000.
        Burns had sold his pride,the pride of the Caucasian race.

        The Canadian never will be forgiven for allowing the title of the best physical man in the world to be wrested from its keeper,by a member of the African race.
        I refused time and again to meet Johnson,while I was holding the title,even though I knew I could beat him.
        I would never allow a Negro a chance to fight for the world's championship and I advise all other champions to follow the same course."
        So Jeffries was happy to officiate as the referee ,providing his price was met, [nearly as much as Johnson got for actually fighting,] but condemned Burns for defending against Johnson when his price was met!
        Rather hypocritical I think.


        As you have observed this contract breaking was hardly a unique situation.
        Tommy Farr was supposed to have fought Schmeling but when a title shot at Louis was dangled in front of him he jumped at it.
        Ray Robinson was notorious for holding up promoters at the last minute demanding mor e money in his dressing room and refusing to get into the ring unless it was forthcoming,with a housefull of punters ,promoters usually succumbed to his black mail,[no pun intended.]


        Braddock reneged on a contract to defend his title against Schmeling who would probably have beaten him and become the first man to regain the heavyweight crown. Instead Braddock's manager negotiated a much more lucrative deal with Mike Jacobs in which Braddock would receive10% of the proceeds of Jacobs heavyweight title fights for the next 10 years.Schmeling was sidelined and Louis got the title shot.Jacobs was over a barrel, Braddock had the title and to get it and consolidate his promotional empire Jacobs had to pay through the nose for the chance.
        You are too full or it! First iff Johnson got $5,000 for Burns. Secondly the fight was in demand before Johnson won the title. How much did Johnson make for his title defenses vs O'brien which was a news draw, with some feeling O'brien was the better, and Ross who won 1 of his last eight fights coming in to the match? We'll say it! Those were Johnson's next two matches. His performance being out boxed by by O'brien a smaller 162 pound man and being rocked by Ross show you his quality! You don't disclose such information and make no mistake about it Johnson would be sued up the wazoo today for not honoring the contact and ducked Langford for years!

        I see you are in yet another fame war. No less than 5 posters going back only two months. Carry on and I be looking for the answers with I do not expect you to reply to.
        Last edited by Dr. Z; 10-31-2022, 03:24 PM.

        Comment


        • #54
          Originally posted by Ivich View Post
          Johnson did sign to fight Langford at the National Sporting Club in Covent Garden this was in early1908 when he was just another leading contender and not yet Champion.He was made to wait in the lobby while Peggy Bettinson the club's manager and promoter concluded the deal with Sam Fitzpatrick ,Johnson's then manager,once they had agreed terms Johnson was presented with the contract to sign.Johnson and Fitzpatrick were on the floor financially and in no position to dictate terms,he signed for the *****rdly sum of £3000 his travel and training expenses to come out of that,the NSC was notorious for its parsimony.

          Johnson then had to accept £3000 as his purse to fight Burns who demanded and got $30.000.After Johnson beat Burns he decided as champion he wanted $30,000 to defend against Langford ,the NSC told him to go **** himself,and Johnson, rightly or wrongly considered himself free from any obligation to honour his existing contract with them.

          Its interesting that Jim Jeffries was offered the job of refereeing the Burns v Johnson fight,but his price of $5000 was too high.

          Jeffries made this public statement after Johnson's victory.
          "Tommy Burns has his price $30,000.
          Burns had sold his pride,the pride of the Caucasian race.

          The Canadian never will be forgiven for allowing the title of the best physical man in the world to be wrested from its keeper,by a member of the African race.
          I refused time and again to meet Johnson,while I was holding the title,even though I knew I could beat him.
          I would never allow a Negro a chance to fight for the world's championship and I advise all other champions to follow the same course."
          So Jeffries was happy to officiate as the referee ,providing his price was met, [nearly as much as Johnson got for actually fighting,] but condemned Burns for defending against Johnson when his price was met!
          Rather hypocritical I think.


          As you have observed this contract breaking was hardly a unique situation.
          Tommy Farr was supposed to have fought Schmeling but when a title shot at Louis was dangled in front of him he jumped at it.
          Ray Robinson was notorious for holding up promoters at the last minute demanding mor e money in his dressing room and refusing to get into the ring unless it was forthcoming,with a housefull of punters ,promoters usually succumbed to his black mail,[no pun intended.]


          Braddock reneged on a contract to defend his title against Schmeling who would probably have beaten him and become the first man to regain the heavyweight crown. Instead Braddock's manager negotiated a much more lucrative deal with Mike Jacobs in which Braddock would receive10% of the proceeds of Jacobs heavyweight title fights for the next 10 years.Schmeling was sidelined and Louis got the title shot.Jacobs was over a barrel, Braddock had the title and to get it and consolidate his promotional empire Jacobs had to pay through the nose for the chance.
          I see the Johnson hater has jumped at the chance to dump on Johnson yet again.
          Unfortunately he doesn't appear to know the difference between English pounds sterling £ and American dollars $.
          As someone has remarked on this forum, the more he froths with rage , spite and eagerness to throw his mud ,the worse his spelling becomes.
          My newest Grandson could put a sentence together better and more legibly than this ******ed muppet. A grown man who needs an interpreter to decipher his gibberish.So very sad.
          Last edited by Ivich; 10-31-2022, 12:53 PM.

          Comment


          • #55
            Originally posted by Ivich View Post
            Johnson did sign to fight Langford at the National Sporting Club in Covent Garden this was in early1908 when he was just another leading contender and not yet Champion.He was made to wait in the lobby while Peggy Bettinson the club's manager and promoter concluded the deal with Sam Fitzpatrick ,Johnson's then manager,once they had agreed terms Johnson was presented with the contract to sign.Johnson and Fitzpatrick were on the floor financially and in no position to dictate terms,he signed for the *****rdly sum of £3000 his travel and training expenses to come out of that,the NSC was notorious for its parsimony.

            Johnson then had to accept £3000 as his purse to fight Burns who demanded and got $30.000.After Johnson beat Burns he decided as champion he wanted $30,000 to defend against Langford ,the NSC told him to go **** himself,and Johnson, rightly or wrongly considered himself free from any obligation to honour his existing contract with them.

            Its interesting that Jim Jeffries was offered the job of refereeing the Burns v Johnson fight,but his price of $5000 was too high.

            Jeffries made this public statement after Johnson's victory.
            "Tommy Burns has his price $30,000.
            Burns had sold his pride,the pride of the Caucasian race.

            The Canadian never will be forgiven for allowing the title of the best physical man in the world to be wrested from its keeper,by a member of the African race.
            I refused time and again to meet Johnson,while I was holding the title,even though I knew I could beat him.
            I would never allow a Negro a chance to fight for the world's championship and I advise all other champions to follow the same course."
            So Jeffries was happy to officiate as the referee ,providing his price was met, [nearly as much as Johnson got for actually fighting,] but condemned Burns for defending against Johnson when his price was met!
            Rather hypocritical I think.


            As you have observed this contract breaking was hardly a unique situation.
            Tommy Farr was supposed to have fought Schmeling but when a title shot at Louis was dangled in front of him he jumped at it.
            Ray Robinson was notorious for holding up promoters at the last minute demanding mor e money in his dressing room and refusing to get into the ring unless it was forthcoming,with a housefull of punters ,promoters usually succumbed to his black mail,[no pun intended.]


            Braddock reneged on a contract to defend his title against Schmeling who would probably have beaten him and become the first man to regain the heavyweight crown. Instead Braddock's manager negotiated a much more lucrative deal with Mike Jacobs in which Braddock would receive10% of the proceeds of Jacobs heavyweight title fights for the next 10 years.Schmeling was sidelined and Louis got the title shot.Jacobs was over a barrel, Braddock had the title and to get it and consolidate his promotional empire Jacobs had to pay through the nose for the chance.
            I mean he fought langford lol. How could he be such a duck.
            Ivich Ivich likes this.

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            • #56
              Originally posted by Rosco3387 View Post

              I mean he fought langford lol. How could he be such a duck.
              Logic flies out the window whenever haters are involved. The haters will say Johnson ducked;
              Jeannette whom he signed to defend against twice.

              That he ducked McVey and Langford whom he signed to defend against in Australia.

              You can't educate pork, nor it seems Johnson haters, facts, dates, venues,and public statements are all ignored as though they never happened.

              "Curiouser and curiouser said Alice"
              Last edited by Ivich; 10-31-2022, 01:31 PM.
              Rosco3387 Rosco3387 likes this.

              Comment


              • #57
                Originally posted by Ivich View Post

                Logic flies out the window whenever haters are involved. The haters will say Johnson ducked;
                Jeannette whom he signed to defend against twice.

                That he ducked McVey and Langford whom he signed to defend against in Australia.

                You can't educate pork, nor it seems Johnson haters, facts, dates, venues,and public statements are all ignored as though they never happened.

                "Curiouser and curiouser said Alice"
                Actually it makes perfect sense: After fighting McVey and Jeanette (7 times?) Johnson hit his head and got Amnesia... meaning that as far as he was concerned, he had never fought these guys see?
                Ivich Ivich likes this.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by Rosco3387 View Post

                  Actually it makes perfect sense: After fighting McVey and Jeanette (7 times?) Johnson hit his head and got Amnesia... meaning that as far as he was concerned, he had never fought these guys see?
                  Oh I get it now. Dr Z must have hit his head too, only not hard enough!

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    Originally posted by Ivich View Post

                    Logic flies out the window whenever haters are involved. The haters will say Johnson ducked;
                    Jeannette whom he signed to defend against twice.

                    That he ducked McVey and Langford whom he signed to defend against in Australia.

                    You can't educate pork, nor it seems Johnson haters, facts, dates, venues,and public statements are all ignored as though they never happened.

                    "Curiouser and curiouser said Alice"
                    Johnson ducked them while champion. Only fought McVey and Jeannette when they were novices. Your double standards are on display again. "Loughran only 21 when he fought Greb".....but you ignore Langford and McVey being 19/20 when they fought Johnson. No rematches while champion. Tore up a contract and then lied about it ever signing it. Found a way out of every other contract that wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. Turned down $20K for Jeannette so he could earn $1K against Jim Johnson, and almost lost.

                    Comment


                    • #60
                      Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

                      Johnson ducked them while champion. Only fought McVey and Jeannette when they were novices. Your double standards are on display again. "Loughran only 21 when he fought Greb".....but you ignore Langford and McVey being 19/20 when they fought Johnson. No rematches while champion. Tore up a contract and then lied about it ever signing it. Found a way out of every other contract that wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. Turned down $20K for Jeannette so he could earn $1K against Jim Johnson, and almost lost.


                      Someone got owned. He doesn't answer my questions he just keeps quoting himself. Information with Ivich need not apply. He is a mental case and a biased hater and other things. The last part is my favorite,
                      Turned down $20K for Jeannette so he could earn $1K against Jim Johnson, and almost lost.
                      Is you read the reports he was on he way to being knocked out at the end. One Judge called the match for Batting Jim, the other to called the match a draw! The first all black title match saved the champion from defeat. If I really cared I'd register at Box Rec, a source he blindly quotes if only to educate the board and watch him squirm.

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