A Question About Harry Greb........

[Obama]

Fred Fulton was prime up until 1921. And it's not like Greb wasn't around in the 1910s. My top 10 from that era:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Harry Wills
3. Sam Langford
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Joe Jeannette
6. Sam McVea
7. Fred Fulton
8. Harry Greb
9. Jess Willard
10. Jack Thompson (beat Clark, McVea, Jeannette, and Langford...)

In this era (most top Heavy talented era of all time) Greb fought none of the above.

Greb beat some good Heavyweights, but in no way did he ever beat the best.

[StarshipTrooper]

Let's not get carried away now. Here's my list of the 10 best Heavyweights from the 1920s (unnatural Heavyweights included):

1. Harry Wills
2. Jack Dempsey
3. Jack Sharkey
4. Gene Tunney
5. Max Schmeling
6. Fred Fulton
7. Young Stribling
8. Harry Greb
9. Sam Langford (Post-Prime)
10. Tommy Gibbons

Now Greb only fought Tommy Gibbons and Gene Tunney of the lot. He went 2-2 with Gibbons, and 1-3-1 with Tunney (newspaper decisions included). In other words, he didn't have a winning record. Neither of those guys were natural Heavyweights, while most on the rest of the list were. So Dempsey ducked him, but that leaves another 6 guys he could have fought. They duck him too?

In fairness though Greb wasn't a Heavyweight: He was a Middleweight who also had a succesful run at Light-Heavy. I'm not really keen on the claims that this or that Heavyweight "ducked" him but at the same time I'm not going to criticise him for not fighting them as it's a bit like taking shots at Hopkins for not fighting, say, Ruiz, Peter, or Haye.

Poet

[TheGreatA]

Greb didn't really campaign at heavyweight until 1919-1920 so it's a non-issue. From 1920 to 1925 he beat many of the best heavyweights. One could say that he all but cleaned out the division outside of Dempsey and Wills during that period in time. The best, Jack Dempsey, refused to face him, so there's nothing he could've done about that.

[carlos slim]

i personally dont put a ton of stock in these guys.you have to respect his record but i think the word "great" is too broad a word.tunney is supposed to be some great fighter but i watch video and see nothing special whatsoever.50 years from now we could say vitali beat the great nigerian sam peter.anybody who has seen sam knows he isnt great,but as far as nigerian heavys go,he is the = of mike tyson,so he is a great fighter for his country.boxing fans have the hardest time excepting the obvious.majority of guys are only good for thier eras

lol great post my friend....greb had like 14 kos in 300 fights and people have him above robinson, hagler, monzon, etc...and theyve seen like 3 secs of grainy footage of him....

[StarshipTrooper]

lol great post my friend....greb had like 14 kos in 300 fights and people have him above robinson, hagler, monzon, etc...and theyve seen like 3 secs of grainy footage of him....

More like 48 but that's besides the point: You should take a gander at his career and see how many of those non-KOs were against guys who outweighed him by 20-30 pounds.

Poet

[Obama]

Greb didn't really campaign at heavyweight until 1919-1920 so it's a non-issue. From 1920 to 1925 he beat many of the best heavyweights. One could say that he all but cleaned out the division outside of Dempsey and Wills during that period in time. The best, Jack Dempsey, refused to face him, so there's nothing he could've done about that.

He fought Willie Meehan at the end of 1917 and Gunboat Smith in mid 1918. From this period till 1922 the top 3 Heavyweights were Dempsey, Wills, and Fulton. His right to fight Dempsey would have been takin a lot more seriously if he actually beat one of the other two. But let's face it, he was never going to beat them.

[TheGreatA]

He fought Willie Meehan at the end of 1917 and Gunboat Smith in mid 1918. From this period till 1922 the top 3 Heavyweights were Dempsey, Wills, and Fulton. His right to fight Dempsey would have been takin a lot more seriously if he actually beat one of the other two. But let's face it, he was never going to beat them.

But the difference is that he wasn't campaigning for a title shot. By 1919-1920, he was calling Dempsey out and actively taking on highly regarded contenders. Fulton had his ribs broken by Wills in 1920 and was no longer seen as a prime contender. Even Miske took him out inside a single round by 1922. The likes of Miske, Gibbons and Brennan were taken seriously enough as challengers for Dempsey, and they were all beaten by Greb. Wills was already the top contender, so there was no need for him to fight anybody, he deserved the title shot for nearly 10 years and never got it.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+sharkey&hl=en

The writer here believes that Dempsey wouldv'e had more problems with the faster Greb than the big, plodding heavyweights. Tunney of course went onto beat Dempsey the next year. Greb also had the better of Dempsey in the sparring sessions they had, which was widely known. Doesn't mean he beats Dempsey, but he could've presented him some problems.

Like I said Greb took on nearly everybody from middleweight up to heavyweight, and nothing that's been said in this thread truly disproves this notion. He was a legitimate top heavyweight from 1920 to 1925.

[r.burgundy]

But the difference is that he wasn't campaigning for a title shot. By 1919-1920, he was calling Dempsey out and actively taking on highly regarded contenders. Fulton had his ribs broken by Wills in 1920 and was no longer seen as a prime contender. Even Miske took him out inside a single round by 1922. The likes of Miske, Gibbons and Brennan were taken seriously enough as challengers for Dempsey, and they were all beaten by Greb. Wills was already the top contender, so there was no need for him to fight anybody, he deserved the title shot for nearly 10 years and never got it.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+sharkey&hl=en

The writer here believes that Dempsey wouldv'e had more problems with the faster Greb than the big, plodding heavyweights. Tunney of course went onto beat Dempsey the next year. Greb also had the better of Dempsey in the sparring sessions they had, which was widely known. Doesn't mean he beats Dempsey, but he could've presented him some problems.

Like I said Greb took on nearly everybody from middleweight up to heavyweight, and nothing that's been said in this thread truly disproves this notion. He was a legitimate top heavyweight from 1920 to 1925.

if a m.w can be a top h.w for 5 years,that should be more an indictment of the h.w's than it should be of 1 guy being that great

[TheGreatA]

if a m.w can be a top h.w for 5 years,that should be more an indictment of the h.w's than it should be of 1 guy being that great

Perhaps it's indictment of the heavyweight division being weak as well as the middleweight in question being great. The light heavyweight division at the time was very strong, and Greb had the better of most light heavyweights at the time as well. So he was competing in a good middleweight division, a strong light heavyweight division and a rather weak heavyweight division.

[r.burgundy]

Perhaps it's indictment of the heavyweight division being weak as well as the middleweight in question being great. The light heavyweight division at the time was very strong, and Greb had the better of most light heavyweights at the time as well. So he was competing in a good middleweight division, a strong light heavyweight division and a rather weak heavyweight division.

but how much should being a top h.w in a terrible time frame factor in the greatness?
james toney seems to get no props whatsoever for his run at h.w and he came from m.w
gunboat smith lmao.he fought somebody named gunboat smith.stuff like that is almost impossible to take serious.and no doubt,somebody,likely poet 1st,then jab,will come in here talking about how great gunboat was but this only adds to the sillyness of that era.

when i was kid,the ultimate warrior used to be announced as being from parts unknown.i actually used to believe they had no idea where he was from.then i got older and realized it was a nice touch