A Question About Harry Greb........

[Obama]

5 years is a small window of time? It's the truth because he didn't start campaigning for a heavyweight title shot until 1919 when Dempsey became the champ and died in 1926. He fought every notable heavyweight during that period in time except for Dempsey the champion, Wills the top contender and possibly Fulton if you view him as a top heavyweight from 1920 onwards which I don't. I don't see anything wrong with what I've said here, the rest is just nitpicking.

Let me put it another way for you then. He didn't beat a Heavyweight good enough to make the fight demanded by the public. Nor was his record against the two best future Heavyweight contenders he fought impressive.

[McGoorty]

How much of an impact does his legacy take from the lack of fight footage we have of him?

His resume and accomplishments are beyond repute but there is always a tendency to overrate the man when reading about his fights and fighting style based on eye-witness accounts, articles etc.

Is he overrated on P4P lists? Should he be ranked above the other greats we have footage of? How can we truly gage his greatness based on articles and No fight footage at all?

He has taken up a 'mythical' status in the sport.

thoughts........

Poet

You have hit the nail on the head, this question has always bothered me, we may have been blown away by a supercharged version of Jack Kid Berg or we may have been slightly disappointed, we can never know I suppose but there were many fans who'd have seen Harry and also seen Monzon so we should Dip our lid to them.

[McGoorty]

Well, firstly its not Greb's fault that he wasn't filmed. He, like many others was a victim of the times.

He does have a fantastic record, the close fights with Gene Tunney confirm that he did have ability. That said he did beat a fair share of nobodies too!!

The footage that does exist..........and there is even some on You-Tube shows a very open, off balance and shockingly defensively deficient pugilist from a bygone era. The footage isn't particularly grainy or flicker film either. Johnson, Dempsey and Tunney seem light years ahead on a skill set. I despair that Tunney even lost to him, if Greb fought like he sparred! But granted, Tunney seemed to peak around the time of the Carpentier fight so its hard to say how good Gene was at the time of his only loss.

I seriously doubt that Dempsey avoided Greb, he would have been surely squashed like Carpentier was.

That said, he was clearly a pound for pound great in his day and deserves to be listed as an ATG. I just cant see him doing well in any era except his own. I think he'd be annihilated in most of the middleweight division's era's, certainly from the 50s onwards.

If he was matched with a peak Robinson, Monzon, Hagler or Hopkins he would be beaten in a sickening fashion in my opinion. Some fighters do stand the test of time in my opinion, I think Tunney and Dempsey would do very well against modern cruiserweights for instance.

But sadly I cant find a place for Greb on my own pound for pound top ten...............or anywhere near.

That said, there are a number of ways to rate a boxer, on legend or on ability. His legend is great, his ability is questionable without more footage.

Saying he would mix well with modern middleweight greats is ridiculous. Its like saying Hercules or Samson would win today's 'World's Strongest Man' competition.

I was fascinated by that bit of analysis on Greb and you're right about the sparring footage and it is probably the most objective on Greb I've read so far. I just opened a thread featuring Greb in a Wish fight with Les Darcy ( Harry Greb vs Les Darcy The trilogy) and I'd like your opinions on that. Unlike Greb we are blessed with some amazing footage of Darcy who looks more modern ( 40's at least ) in style and it's pretty hard to fault him in defence and he is sooo strong. You probably know this but there is even film of the full 9 rounds of the Darcy vs George Chip, the only real problem in the film occurs just on the K.O., but if you pause just before the film cuts out and go frame by frame you will see ( if slightly blurred ) an exquisitely executed left hook single kayo. Hope you check the thread out.

[McGoorty]

Fred Fulton was prime up until 1921. And it's not like Greb wasn't around in the 1910s. My top 10 from that era:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Harry Wills
3. Sam Langford
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Joe Jeannette
6. Sam McVea
7. Fred Fulton
8. Harry Greb
9. Jess Willard
10. Jack Thompson (beat Clark, McVea, Jeannette, and Langford...)

In this era (most top Heavy talented era of all time) Greb fought none of the above.

Greb beat some good Heavyweights, but in no way did he ever beat the best.

Any list of a top 10 of the 10's that has forgotten the Phenom Les DARCY just means you overlooked the greatest middleweight of the decade, we make mistakes, but to put Fred Fulton there is just poor, Les Darcy did him in 2 rounds and Fred could NOT come out for a 3rd, now this was supposed to be a "friendly" for the benefit of Rickard, Kearns and I think even Fleisher and press, but Darcy got annoyed with Fred apparantly and it became serious. It shocked all observers that a 20 year old a whole foot shorter could humiliate, a big name so easily. Dempsey and Tunney have talked about this in interviews, Les was afterall the Aust. Heavyweight champ. Darcy was in a much higher class, Willard's size is the only advantage over Darcy too ( you seen the photo of Jess & Les ). It may be that you meant Heavyweights only but you have Greb In there but that doesn't matter because even with Harry there Les would be in the list anyway, has DARCY been Forgotten ??????????