Is Mike Tyson A ATG?

[Calilloyd]

Its been a while since Ive seen that fight, I'm going to have to watch it again.

I also don't class him as a ATG either, he falls way short in terms of consistency and reaction to adversity. His accomplishments are that he unified the belts, but you have to do more than that to be a ATG in my opinion.

He also won the heavyweight championship at 20 years of age. The youngest ever. That record might not ever be broken. You can't ignore that.

[Calilloyd]

then how can you possibly class Dempsey as an all-time great?

I was going to ask the same question.

[Calilloyd]

Tyson had no business being a champ at such an early age he was basically pushed into it because Cus wanted him to be a champion before he died. Look what happened to him soon afterwards.

Once, before prison, after prison he beat Bruno to claim the WBC belt and then beat Sheldon to get the WBA belt. He was stripped of the WBC belt for not fighting his mandatory who was Lewis.

This has nothing to do with him qualifying as a ATG

That's a ridiculous statement. He was destroying everybody they put in front of him. Including Berbick. So his business was the heavyweight championship. What happened after is irrelevant.

[Sweet Jesus]

From the guy who hasnt even gave a reason why he should be classed as one.

Accomplishments:
WBC 9 defences, WBA 8 defences, IBF 6 defences
Linear champion 1988-06-1990-02
Best wins:
Spinks, Ruddock*2, Holmes (past prime), Tucker i.e overall B level competiton
He never beat a hofer/ATG/Elite fighter who was in their prime
Noticable Losses:
Holyfield*2, Lewis, Douglas i.e he basically lost to the best fighters he faced
Missed competiton:
Foreman, who he wanted nothing to do with
Reaction to adversity: often came up short in his toughest fights
Consistency: Had 4 good years and 10 very bad years i.e very inconsistent
Verdict: With so many great fighters who have been in boxing for the last 100 years, how is this enough to class him as a ATG?

You conveniently mention that Tyson fought a past prime Holmes but don't mention that Mike himself was well past his prime vs. Lewis. Holmes lost two close fights vs. Spinks, some say he deserved the decisions in both, and then was inactive before facing Mike. Holmes wasn't getting his ass kicked by anyone, so let's not pretend like he was a whipping boy at that point in his career. Mike was also the first and only to stop Holmes.

Foreman? Really? Who was Foreman beating at that point in his career? That win would have meant nothing at the time. The only reason Foreman's comeback was legitimized is because he landed a lucky punch on Moorer. That fight also would probably have never happened if Mike fought Foreman in the early 90s.

[zero188]

yes he is an atg.the youngest hw champ of all time (with all do respect,fighting world class hw is no joke).he also unified the belts.the division was not as weak as people make it out to be.his career was over in 1990,its been said over and over and even from tyson himself.people forget that spinks was undefeated and had been stripped of the ibf belt and many still considered spinks as the champ.mike got him out of there in 90 seconds.people also say that douglas exposed him and forget that mike was not training like he used to,had an unprepaired corner,and in a way you can say he didnt care at the moment.this never would have happened if he stayed with kevin rooney.he peaked imo against spinks and fired rooney after the fight.he only had two fights without rooney before he got beat.he got stunned bad by bruno and had a 1 round ko of williams.you cant use these as excuses,but i had to put that out there.do i think he is the best hw of all time?no.is he an atg?yes.i think he could have been among the top atg fighters.

[Toney616]

[U][B]
That's a ridiculous statement. He was destroying everybody they put in front of him. Including Berbick. So his business was the heavyweight championship. What happened after is irrelevant.

You are missing the point. Would you say that Tyson was emotionally and mentally prepared for such a burden? The facts show before and after he became a champion that he wasn't able to cope with such a burden. It doesnt matter if he could beat the guys out there or not. He was pushed into it because Cus wanted him to become a champion before he died.

Read Teddys book, where he talks of how Tyson would go missing for weeks so he could avoid fighting in amateur fights, go and watch him with Atlas before some of his amateur fights were he is crying his eyes out saying that," no one would love my anymore if I lose." Then read what Lott said about how Tyson always performed better in the gym then in actual pro fights because there was less pressure. And then you are going to tell me that in 3+ years time this kid was ready to be a world champion?

The fact that he was on the slide as a fighter by the Spinks fight and taking unnecessary anti depressant medication proves my point.

[BritishBoxing92]

[Toney616]

You conveniently mention that Tyson fought a past prime Holmes but don't mention that Mike himself was well past his prime vs. Lewis.

Larry Holmes was 38 years old when he fought Tyson, i.e he was 13 years past his physical peak. He also hadn't fought in 2 years and took the Tyson fight at 5 weeks notice. That had to be one of the worst versions of Holmes that anyone had fought. Yes, Mike was past prime and that changes what exactly? He lost the Lewis fight because he couldn't be bothered to train for it, not because he was shot as a fighter.

Holmes lost two close fights vs. Spinks, some say he deserved the decisions in both, and then was inactive before facing Mike. Holmes wasn't getting his ass kicked by anyone, so let's not pretend like he was a whipping boy at that point in his career. Mike was also the first and only to stop Holmes.

Holmes clearly lost the first fight, but I thought he deserved to get the nod in the second fight. He was inactive for 2 years and took the fight at 5 weeks notice, even Tyson would comment that Holmes looked flabby and out of shape.

Foreman? Really? Who was Foreman beating at that point in his career? That win would have meant nothing at the time.

After Tyson's loss to Douglas, King wanted to have Tyson fight in a high profile fight. He figured a spectacular knockout win over a name opponent would get Tyson back on track to being the man in the heavyweight picture again. King thought he found the perfect opponent in Foreman who was all over television after beating Cooney. Foreman never passed up an opportunity to take a shot at Tyson and throw out challenges to him while doing the talk show circuit.

While we were eating, Benton said, "Bobby, what's up with Foreman and Tyson, how come they're not fighting each other on the 16th? Isn't that the fight that King was trying to make?" He said, " Georgie,You'll never believe this but, ****in' Tyson is scared ****less of Foreman and wants no part of him. I was there when Don was trying to make the fight. He was telling Tyson that Foreman represented huge money, plus he was old and slow and would be no problem. Tyson got up and screamed at King saying, 'I'm not fightin' that ****in' animal, if you love the mother****er so much, you fight him!'"

"Oh I remember why else Tyson wanted no parts of Foreman. He said that King had found out from Steve Lott that Tyson and Cus D'Amato used to watch the Frazier-Foreman fight over and over." He continued saying that Tyson loved that fight because he was awed by Foreman's power and Frazier's toughness and how he kept getting up after every knockdown. He also said that Lott told King that Cus sat alongside Tyson saying, "It's suicide against Foreman if you're short and fight a swarming attacking style like Marciano or Frazier," never figuring that Foreman could be a possible Tyson opponent down the road. He said that Cus said the only fighters who had a chance against Foreman were, tall rangy fighters who could fight him from a distance while moving away from him, and no way any swarmer could beat Foreman by going to him.

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The only reason Foreman's comeback was legitimized is because he landed a lucky punch on Moorer. That fight also would probably have never happened if Mike fought Foreman in the early 90s.

Not true, people took notice of him after his fights with Cooney and after his valiant effort against Holyfield.

[Toney616]

[/B]
He also won the heavyweight championship at 20 years of age. The youngest ever. That record might not ever be broken. You can't ignore that.

your missing the point, see my post above

[Toney616]

I think to make ATG he has a few things going against him... he never avenged any of his loses ..his resume is lacking of stellar Competition ! .....that being said hes deffo a HOF

Yeah I think he is as well