Roy Jones Jr Or Tony Canzoneri?

[TheGreatA]

Louis did KO Ray in an exhibition, but Ray was no longer a world class fighter by then.

[McGrain]

Even though Louis knocked out Walcott in their second fight, let's not forget that he should've lost the first fight.

Well that's the first thing I have to dispute. Only extended highlights of this fight exist on film, so how can you be sure? I have extended highlights, and what I see is film that gives neither fighter any real edge under the scoring system of that time - it looks very even.

Two out of three newsmen scored it for Walcott.

Two out of three officials scored if for Louis.

It was a "what do you like" type of fight in the era of the champion, I think. For my own reasoning

Baer had a broken his right hand 3 weeks before the fight, in an exhibition bout.

I've never actually heard this story before. Do you have a source for it?

Schmeling and Sharkey was past it, but they're still good wins, I'll admit.

He beat Hopkins at middleweight, who Hopkins himself is without question a top 10 middleweight. Sometimes even considered to be a top 5 middleweight. And while he may have still been a bit green, so was Jones.

Jones was a bit green, yeah. But he was also a phenom, a pure athlete. These men peak early. Hopkins, on the other hand, is a fighter who rellies upon tactical acumen and technical excellence. LEARNED attributes. Prior to meeting Jones he had fought one twelve round fight against a 26-14 opponent. I'd say Braddock is a better win. You'd no doubt disagree, but that's how I see it.

He beat the reigning super middleweight champion in Toney, in his first title fight in the division. Many consider Toney to be a P4P all-time great.

Certainly a very good fighter, but a horribly weight drained fighter who would never make 175 again. An exceptional, hypnotising performance though.

I'm not trying to say that Jones deserves to be ranked higher than Louis. I'm just asking why Gabby bashes Jones for not having "enough quality opponents", when the same thing is often said about Louis.

It's certainly the defining factor in the Ali v Louis debate in my opinion. But I would see Jones as having a vastly inferior resume myself.

You seem like a good poster and certainly one to have an interesting discussion with. But my focus is mainly on Gabby, who started this whole thing.

Yeah. This is definitely a pistols drawn type of forum.

[FunkyFresh]

Well that's the first thing I have to dispute. Only extended highlights of this fight exist on film, so how can you be sure? I have extended highlights, and what I see is film that gives neither fighter any real edge under the scoring system of that time - it looks very even.

Two out of three newsmen scored it for Walcott.

Two out of three officials scored if for Louis.

It was a "what do you like" type of fight in the era of the champion, I think. For my own reasoning

I hope you're not talking of the same film that I've seen, which showed Walcott dropping Louis twice and basically taking him to school.

I don't know what "two out of three newsmen" you're talking about. I do know that there were 32 boxing writers present at ringside and 21 of them scored it for Walcott.

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:23160

I've never actually heard this story before. Do you have a source for it?

Two sources:

www.jethroscasino.com/max_baer_sr.htm

Then, against Joe Louis, Baer broken hand hadn't healed. There is a little known letter Max wrote to his fiancé, Mary Ellen Sullivan, that read, "I hope to God my hand heals before the fight." His hand was injected with Novocain before the fight at Yankee Stadium, but fight time was delayed due to rain.

By the time the fight started, the Novocain had worn off and Baer was in panic. His best weapon was useless. Most reporters and fans mistook his panic and lousy performance against a prime Louis as an act of fear.

www.maxbaer.org/theman.html

Just after Max's death, his accountant, Bayard Bookman stated that Baer broke his right hand during an exhibition fight three weeks before the fight, but kept it quiet. He was given a shot of Novocain before walking into the ring to fight Louis. When the needle was inserted too near the wrist, instead of controlling pain it deadened his entire right arm. "Max had the intelligence and imagination to know what Louis could do to him, and here he was going in with his main weapon - his only weapon, actually - useless.

Jones was a bit green, yeah. But he was also a phenom, a pure athlete. These men peak early. Hopkins, on the other hand, is a fighter who rellies upon tactical acumen and technical excellence. LEARNED attributes. Prior to meeting Jones he had fought one twelve round fight against a 26-14 opponent. I'd say Braddock is a better win. You'd no doubt disagree, but that's how I see it.

I wouldn't say all of them peaked early. Pacquiao and Mosley are both very good pure athletes, and they didn't really peak early. Besides, I don't know what that has to do with the version of Jones that Hopkins fought that night. He wasn't at his peak, yet, and everyone will agree with that.

Also, Hopkins had two twelve round fights and went the distance in one of them. Jones only had one and it didn't go the distance. That means that Hopkins had proven stamina and championship round experience, while Jones didn't.

Certainly a very good fighter, but a horribly weight drained fighter who would never make 175 again. An exceptional, hypnotising performance though.

The weight-drained excuse is old and useless. Toney was a fatty who always had trouble making weight. The Jones fight wasn't the first time. So yes, blame Jones for Toney's eating habits, if you want.

You and I both know, though, that Jones would've beaten Toney on any day of the week.

It's certainly the defining factor in the Ali v Louis debate in my opinion. But I would see Jones as having a vastly inferior resume myself.

That's your opinion, even though I've debunked a lot of the "greatness" from the Louis wins that you mentioned.

[McGrain]

I hope you're not talking of the same film that I've seen, which showed Walcott dropping Louis twice and basically taking him to school.

Remember that in dropping Louis Walcott recieves no extra points; just the round. I don't accept that Walcott "took Louis to school". I do feel he outboxed him for stretches, but enough to take the title away? I don't know.

I don't know what "two out of three newsmen" you're talking about. I do know that there were 32 boxing writers present at ringside and 21 of them scored it for Walcott.

21 out of 32 is two out of three.

Two sources:

www.jethroscasino.com/max_baer_sr.htm



www.maxbaer.org/theman.html

Thank you.

I wouldn't say all of them peaked early. Pacquiao and Mosley are both very good pure athletes, and they didn't really peak early.

Good. Not phenominal. Guys like Jones and Tyson just hit the ground running. Anyway, details aside, Jones was nearer his peak than Hopkins is the point.

The weight-drained excuse is old and useless. Toney was a fatty who always had trouble making weight. The Jones fight wasn't the first time. So yes, blame Jones for Toney's eating habits, if you want.

Donald McRae had unparalleled access to Toney around this time, and it was clear that Toney's weight issues were worse than was normal. He broke camp and entered a different one geared purely towards ditching the weight two weeks before the fight. He never tried to make the weight again. He pursued his manager with a gun (supposedly) when she suggested invokign the rematch clause at 168 rather than duck out of that clause and try to get the fight at 175. Toney wasn't disciplined, and he has to bare blame for that, but there's no question in my mind that Toney struggled horribly with the weight. I'm not interested in making excuses, that's just how I see it upon balance.

That's your opinion, even though I've debunked a lot of the "greatness" from the Louis wins that you mentioned.

Well Walcott II is a straight up great win with Jersey Joe looking as good on film as he ever did. Baer and Sharkey remain incredibley impressive wins for a two year pro. Braddock beat the #1 HW prospect, the #1 contender, a greatly feared champion and a fighter with a massive stylistic advantage over him on his way to the title before Louis murdered him. Schmeling was past his absolute best but in no way compromised before Louis destroyed him. I think you overestimate your debunking skills.

[The_Demon]

Even though Louis knocked out Walcott in their second fight, let's not forget that he should've lost the first fight.

Baer had a broken his right hand 3 weeks before the fight, in an exhibition bout. He clearly wasn't ready for the fight.

Schmeling and Sharkey was past it, but they're still good wins, I'll admit.

Compare that to Jones' four best wins:

He beat Hopkins at middleweight, who Hopkins himself is without question a top 10 middleweight. Sometimes even considered to be a top 5 middleweight. And while he may have still been a bit green, so was Jones.

He beat the reigning super middleweight champion in Toney, in his first title fight in the division. Many consider Toney to be a P4P all-time great.

Even though he was past his prime, he absolutely dominated McCallum in his first light heavyweight title fight. McCallum is another fighter that many consider to be a P4P all-time great.

Finally, he beat Ruiz for a heavyweight title. While Ruiz isn't considered to be an all-time great heavyweight, it's certainly impressive for a fighter who fought as low as light middleweight to become a heavyweight champion.

I'm not trying to say that Jones deserves to be ranked higher than Louis. I'm just asking why Gabby bashes Jones for not having "enough quality opponents", when the same thing is often said about Louis.

You seem like a good poster and certainly one to have an interesting discussion with. But my focus is mainly on Gabby, who started this whole thing.

Fuck off idiot

on subject- Canzoneri beat the better fighters

[frankenfrank]

Who should be remembered as the greater fighter and why?

are you The Underdog ? what happened to him ?