Oscar DeLa Hoya VS Roberto Duran

[wmute]

Number 1, I will get flack for this, but I don't believe personally that SR Leonard is a better fighter than DLH. He may be higher on an ATG list than DLH but better he is not. If he is, then it isn't by much.

no?

I mean...

2 hand vs 1 hand

better defense

similar chin (I rate Oscar's chin very high)

higher boxing iq/better ring generalship

better footwork

faster hands

faster feet

...

am i forgetting anything?

[CarlosG815]

See, this is the perfect post. Simple, precise and to the point without any wack biased opinion. It is what it is. Carlos: Oscar was a great fighter and at was his best at 147. He wasn't very special at 135 at all to honest. He just looked like a good fighter with speed and a size advantage. That's it.

At 147 he was different. He had seasoned and matured into his greatest period. I see it it being two different fights. It we're talking the Duran at 135, I see Oscar losing an obvious UD and getting a bit of a pasting in the latter rounds.

If we're talking the usual Duran of 147, ie. the one that came in chubby and a little off his timing, then I would see it being a great, hard fight that could be anyone's. If it was the highly motivated Duran that was the same as the 135 version (the Leonard I version) then I see it being a close fight for twelve with Duran winning most rounds (similar to Leonard I but with Duran his rounds more clearly), even though they're close and then pulling away in the championship rounds to again win a clear decision.

The thing is, Oscar is a great fighter but he is like a poor mans Leonard. That means he loses (imo).

This is an excellent post.

What got me in this thread was the ridiculousness coming from Yeti.

[CarlosG815]

Huh?

I'm lost here mate. I understand that you're trying to have a dig at me, but, I don't really get it.

Where do you rank Tszyu at 140? I don't see him as any type of ATG, apart from in his division in which I believe he is probably top five.

What does 'AKA' mean?

I do not feel Kostya is even worth typing about anymore than I already have in this very sentence, but that's just me.

[BennyST]

I do not feel Kostya is even worth typing about anymore than I already have in this very sentence, but that's just me.

Ok, that's cool mate.

If you are going to **** on me for saying Tszyu is probably a top five fighter at 140 (and, to be honest, I haven't given it a whole lot of thought. I might have him at 20 or I might have him at three. I don;t know but I do know the greats in that division and off the top of my head I can't think of five better) at least give me a reason.

If you don't think about him, that means you haven't thought about where he would probably place at 140.

That's all I'm asking. If you're going to say I'm pwned and a moron or whatever, at least show me why you say that so I can either agree with you or say "What the hell are you talking about? *insert name* is a top five" or whatever.

Don't just write "AKA. You got owned!" and then not explain why, because I don't understand why!

[CarlosG815]

no?

I mean...

2 hand vs 1 hand

better defense

similar chin (I rate Oscar's chin very high)

higher boxing iq/better ring generalship

better footwork

faster hands

faster feet

...

am i forgetting anything?

Oscar was good with both hands, the left hook was so devastating that it overshadows his other punching abilities, as that is all people notice.

Better D? Hmmm. Thats your opinion but I feel that is debatable. I don't remember many times where Oscar dropped his arms and bobbled his head around. I think Oscar had a great defense.

Oscar had the better chin.

Ring IQ is another thing that's being under rated that I thought about but didn't bring up. Oscar was very smart in training and being able to train just right for his opponent. He was extremely composed and had the ability to adjust to his opponents style in the middle of the fight.

Leonard has slightly better footwork (why do people think Oscar was so slow on his feet? I never saw this. Dancing like Ali and Leonard wasn't his style, but he was still very quick on his feet) and leonard does have the faster hands without question (although Oscar is very fast).

You remembered many of the important aspects that make a fighter great, but you're not rating Oscar properly. His record and accomplishments speak for themselves.

You forget things like self control outside the ring and heart.

Oscar was never a slob outside of the ring and always kept himself in respectable shape, unlike Duran, who was pretty much the exact opposite.

Oscar had the heart of a champion his entire career. He took a seat once while he was old and weight drained to Manny Pacquiao, where he was taking a massive beating and in the condition he entered the ring it may have been dangerous for him to continue, so I'll never hold that against him.

Whereas Roberto Duran quit in the middle of a fight because he was frustrated and said "I'm behind on the cards. This guy is frustrating me to the point where I'm sure I can't knock him out, I might as well quit now because I know he'll give me a rematch."

See those are some things you're forgetting.

Oscar would fight his heart out and somehow come up with a KO. In the instance of Trinidad, I feel that Oscar was so ahead on the cards, he had fought a battle, he should have been able to stop trying for a KO and still get the victory over Trinidad, but he was robbed. That's the only instance I can think of that he put it on cruise but at the time he made the decision to do so, I think it was the right call. In hindsight, he should have fought more, but at the time it seemed like an ok idea, as he had the fight in the bag.

[CarlosG815]

Ok, that's cool mate.

If you are going to **** on me for saying Tszyu is probably a top five fighter at 140 (and, to be honest, I haven't given it a whole lot of thought. I might have him at 20 or I might have him at three. I don;t know but I do know the greats in that division and off the top of my head I can't think of five better) at least give me a reason.

If you don't think about him, that means you haven't thought about where he would probably place at 140.

That's all I'm asking. If you're going to say I'm pwned and a moron or whatever, at least show me why you say that so I can either agree with you or say "What the hell are you talking about? *insert name* is a top five" or whatever.

Don't just write "AKA. You got owned!" and then not explain why, because I don't understand why!

I wasn't referring to Kostya, I was referring your refusal to respond to the fact that I wasn't talking about DLH having bigger punching power than Tommy Hearns. You just called it "stupid."

While I do acknowledge him as a top 3 140lb fighter, Kostya fought in a division that I really don't care for and only fought a few opponents that I would care to watch.

[BennyST]

no?

I mean...

2 hand vs 1 hand

better defense

similar chin (I rate Oscar's chin very high)

higher boxing iq/better ring generalship

better footwork

faster hands

faster feet

...

am i forgetting anything?

Oscar's chin is amazing, but (and this isn't directed at you Wmute...God, you have to be so PC these days) Leonard was seriously one of the toughest dudes I've ever seen!

He really was like an Ali, but didn't fight a Hearns or Norris later on and didn't fight as brutal guys in general.

Personally, if Oscar folds under a Hopkins body shot and Leonard doesn't fold or even back down from Duran's greatest body shots over fifteen horrid, insane, psychotic rounds of some of the worst (and best if you know what I mean) body punching you'll ever see.....I can envisage Oscar being, if not knocked down, at least very badly hurt and punished to the point that he can't fight properly anymore.

I know Hop and Duran are different and Hop was a MW, but Duran's body shots were much more brutal and consistent over a fight.

Yeah?

[BennyST]

This is an excellent post.

What got me in this thread was the ridiculousness coming from Yeti.

Thank you.

Without sitting on our old 'beef' or whatever that term is, why did you argue so vehemently with me then?

If that's his thing why not address my post is if you had not read his and without already being on the defensive you know?

Anyway, it's cool, you know my thoughts now and I know yours. You think Oscar would win and I think Oscar would lose. Cool.

[CarlosG815]

Thank you.

Without sitting on our old 'beef' or whatever that term is, why did you argue so vehemently with me then?

If that's his thing why not address my post is if you had not read his and without already being on the defensive you know?

Anyway, it's cool, you know my thoughts now and I know yours. You think Oscar would win and I think Oscar would lose. Cool.

Because you went on a rant about Tommy Hearns when I believed you knew I wasn't talking about Oscar having more punching power, but were trying to purposely twist my words to discredit my entire post.

I thought it was pretty clear that I was talking about DLH having comparable power to Duran, and not the Hitman.

[BennyST]

I wasn't referring to Kostya, I was referring your refusal to respond to the fact that I wasn't talking about DLH having bigger punching power than Tommy Hearns. You just called it "stupid."

While I do acknowledge him as a top 3 140lb fighter, Kostya fought in a division that I really don't care for and only fought a few opponents that I would care to watch.

Oh man..... I did! Go read it again.

Ok, so you say you think he's a top three 140 fighter but **** one e for saying he's a top five 140 fighter?

See, this is what I don't get? I don;t know what you're getting at, at times. Bringing Tszyu up? We both he is an ATG at 140. Why do you then give me ****e about it as if I'm a moron when you think even better of him!!!!!!!?

Jesus, I just don't understand any of this anymore.

I'm done.