Is Joe Louis A Top 5 ATG?

[JAB5239]

I have a question for you.When you compare the other weight classes to the heavyweights do you take into consideration that they would lose speed,reflexes,agility,etc. etc. when moving up to heavyweight? I'm not trying to be smart,I really want to know how you compare the lighter weight classes to the heavyweights? Or do you say.....Blow up a Roberto Duran to 215 lbs,and compare him to Muhammad Ali.Geeeezzzz,he would kill Ali if he was blown up to 215 lbs.Do you consider the Heavyweights would be faster and quicker at 147 lbs?

Thank you

Why would anyone make up imaginary assumptions? I judge fighters by who they have fought and the skill sets shown and presented them. Ali and Louis were extremely gifted, but what makes them any more gifted compared to fighters who fought guys equally or almost equally as gifted? Nothing. The one thing the separates them is their competition. You can imagine their comp was better if you want, but simply isn't the truth when you look at it on an all time level. The truth is that the heavyweights have always been the least gifted. That isn't a knock on the division but something Im willing to back up if you want to make specific comparisons.

[boxingbuff]

Why would anyone make up imaginary assumptions? I judge fighters by who they have fought and the skill sets shown and presented them. Ali and Louis were extremely gifted, but what makes them any more gifted compared to fighters who fought guys equally or almost equally as gifted? Nothing. The one thing the separates them is their competition. You can imagine their comp was better if you want, but simply isn't the truth when you look at it on an all time level. The truth is that the heavyweights have always been the least gifted. That isn't a knock on the division but something Im willing to back up if you want to make specific comparisons.

Your getting defensive again.

Lets just take one example.Roberto Duran vs Muhammad Ali

Sure we take there resume's and compare them.Sure we take everything in to consideration.I rank Roberto Duran ahead of Muhammad Ali.

Now lets consider blowing up Roberto Duran to 215 lbs. He would easily beat and KO Muhammad Ali.So would SRL if we were blowing him up to 215 lbs. Could you imagine with his speed at heavyweight along with his power? Both would easily beat and KO Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis.

But comparing Duran and SRL with Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis.When blowing them up to 215lbs wouldn't they lose some of there speed,quickness,and reflexes? Imagine Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali coming down to 135lbs.Imagine how much faster,quicker,and there reflexes would be? Do you understand what I'm saying? Big guys are always slower,uncordinated,with slower reflexes and agility.

I know of people when comparing fighters p4p....They say:Imagine blowing up Harry Greb to 215 lbs.Can you imagine how bad he would destroy every heavyweight? But they don't take into consideration when blowing him up,that he would lose speed,quickness,and reflexes.Don't get me wrong,they take everything into consideration,but then ADD ON... imagine if we blown up Marvin Hagler to 220 lbs?

I was just wondering if you ever did that when comparing lower weight classes to the Heavyweights.Don't get defensive.I'm not saying you do this.I'm simply asking the question.

Thank you

[McGrain]

Langford, Greb, Robinson, Armstrong, Charles, no way for Louis to get in about that lot.

[frankenfrank]

Yes Or No and explain the reason behind your answer.

no , as he even fails making a top15 heavy.
he was KO'd twice. there are so many fighters whom fought mainly good opposition , haven't reached that number and even i don't consider them top5 ATG.
honestly , i am not sure at all who were the 5 greatest ever but as i said , i am sure louis is not even a top15 heavy. however , if you consider him a cruiserweight , which he actually was , then he might even make my top10 some day , however , this day has yet to come.

[mickey malone]

no , as he even fails making a top15 heavy.
he was KO'd twice. there are so many fighters whom fought mainly good opposition , haven't reached that number and even i don't consider them top5 ATG.
honestly , i am not sure at all who were the 5 greatest ever but as i said , i am sure louis is not even a top15 heavy. however , if you consider him a cruiserweight , which he actually was , then he might even make my top10 some day , however , this day has yet to come.

Between 1936 and 1951 Joe Louis's average fighting weight was 206lbs..
During this time he had 46 contests which included 25 title defenses..
If you divide the sum total of his recorded weigh-in's (9485lbs) by the number of fights (46) = 206lbs = 6'2" underrated heavyweight..

[frankenfrank]

Between 1936 and 1951 Joe Louis's average fighting weight was 206lbs..
During this time he had 46 contests which included 25 title defenses..
If you divide the sum total of his recorded weigh-in's (9485lbs) by the number of fights (46) = 206lbs = 6'2" underrated heavyweight..

what you claim is a mere consequence of a weak era.
many fighters since 1965 could have ruled the pre 1965 era

like it or not :
louis loses by stoppage to the following : Vitali Klitschko , Wladimir Klitschko , David Tua , Mike Tyson , George Foreman , Joe Frazier ,
Rocky Marciano , Rid**** Bowe ,

he gets the puncher's chance but no more than that against : Wladimir Klitschko , Lennox Lewis , Joe Frazier , Rocky Marciano.

and i wonder how many posters here will consider him a favorite against Ali or Holmes.

he might get McCall by way of decision .

he may have a 50/50 chance against Sam Peter Liston , Schmelling (history proved that)
and against Patterson , Johnson Bonavena , Lyle and Shavers he might be a slight favorite , some 60/40 no more.

sorry , it doesn't look like top15 hw to me.
someone please make a Louis vs. Arreola fantasy fight.

[r.burgundy]

what you claim is a mere consequence of a weak era.
many fighters since 1965 could have ruled the pre 1965 era

like it or not :
louis loses by stoppage to the following : Vitali Klitschko , Wladimir Klitschko , David Tua , Mike Tyson , George Foreman , Joe Frazier ,
Rocky Marciano , Rid**** Bowe ,

he gets the puncher's chance but no more than that against : Wladimir Klitschko , Lennox Lewis , Joe Frazier , Rocky Marciano.

and i wonder how many posters here will consider him a favorite against Ali or Holmes.

he might get McCall by way of decision .

he may have a 50/50 chance against Sam Peter Liston , Schmelling (history proved that)
and against Patterson , Johnson Bonavena , Lyle and Shavers he might be a slight favorite , some 60/40 no more.

sorry , it doesn't look like top15 hw to me.
someone please make a Louis vs. Arreola fantasy fight.

im no louis fan,and im a firm beliver he is only good for is era,but by achievement alone he is definitely 1 of the greatest heavys

[frankenfrank]

im no louis fan,and im a firm beliver he is only good for is era,but by achievement alone he is definitely 1 of the greatest heavys

only if you measure achievements by blind on paper numbers like longevity , number of defenses , etc and ignoring the opposition he had in them.

and i even did not base my post you quoted on these criteria , i based it on h2h alone. how would both fighters perform had they swapped their opponents ?

[r.burgundy]

only if you measure achievements by blind on paper numbers like longevity , number of defenses , etc and ignoring the opposition he had in them.

and i even did not base my post you quoted on these criteria , i based it on h2h alone. how would both fighters perform had they swapped their opponents ?

i think any champ from this era would dominate louis era but louis to his credit took care of buisness.he was wrapping those bums up left and right

[frankenfrank]

i think any champ from this era would dominate louis era but louis to his credit took care of buisness.he was wrapping those bums up left and right

i never accused him of ducking anyone. he was the h2h best of his era.
but when compiling ATG lists at hw , legacy is not what at stake. h2h is , however. and while louis should be ranked higher than everyone of his time , he can't be regarded a favorite against the elite of all time , had i measured legacy , i guess he might make the top10 hw , but i don't care whose legacy's better than whom , all i care is who will beat whom and how.
and i will give louis the respect of being my favorite to beat Oleg Maskaev , but not an overwhelming favorite as some will make of him