Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sugar Ray Leonard Is NOT at Top 15 ATG!!!!!!

Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
    Yeah that a bit absurd when all but 2 I believe came at heavyweight and against mostly HOF'ers. AND this was over 185 fights against many of the best of all time.
    Patterson,Ali,Marciano,Charles,Bivins?
    They come up against a lot of chinny fighters them

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by carlos slim View Post
      u ever see that fight where him and the other guy keep knocking down each other....i think it was in canada......imo a superfight win as long as both are in there relative primes (not lewis-tyson) is worth more then several wins over top contenders....
      Yeah I think I might have caught that one

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by GJC View Post
        Patterson,Ali,Marciano,Charles,Bivins?
        They come up against a lot of chinny fighters them

        Add in Ezzard Charles and Eddie Booker, who along with Charlie Burley were the best fighters to beat him in his own opinion. Booker supposedly broke Moore's ribs in that meeting.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by carlos slim View Post
          well 1st of all were talking about top 15 you named like 20 fighters so lemme just discredit a few, without taking away their atg status...1st of all most of those guys had 60+ fights, leonard only had 40 because of his eye injury....

          monzon never overcame a size disadvtange to the best i know....arguello was not able to beat pryor, thats similar to leonard-hearns....archie moore=bad chin...when you talk about those guys from the 1930s they may have had better resumes because they fought more but there skills do not match...
          Saying Arguello wasn't able to beat Pryor, is a bit like saying Leonard wasn't able to beat Camacho.. That was a past prime Arguello attempting to win a 4th title in as many weights..

          So Leonard had an eye injury, got it fixed and had 4 years out..
          Harry Greb and Sam Langford (who i shamefully forgot to mention) fought half their careers without an eye, Willie Pep was nearly killed in a plane crash but carried on winning, Ali was banned for 4 years, Louis lost 4 years because of the war, and although Monzon never overcame a size advantage he sure as hell scored more KO's than Leonard had fights, and while i'm at it, so did Alexis Arguello!..
          Last edited by mickey malone; 04-17-2010, 03:12 PM.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by mickey malone View Post
            Saying Arguello wasn't able to beat Pryor, is a bit like saying Leonard wasn't able to beat Camacho.. That was a past prime Arguello attempting to win a 4th title in as many weights..

            So Leonard had an eye injury, got it fixed and had 4 years out..
            Harry Greb and Sam Langford (who i shamefully forgot to mention) fought half their careers without an eye, Willie Pep was nearly killed in a plane crash but carried on winning, Ali was banned for 4 years, Louis lost 4 years because of the war, and although Monzon never overcame a size advantage he sure as hell scored more KO's than Leonard had fights, and while i'm at it, so did Alexis Arguello!..
            THose are fair points and the guys you mentioned are all top 10(except Monzon and Arguello) and even I dont have SRL top 10.

            I think there are maybe 13 or 14 guys which you can make a strong case to be higher than SRL but than it becomes murky and subjective.

            For example, Bert Sugar has SRL #25 but many of the guys ahead of him are questionable as Chavez and Dempsey. To have 7 HW's ahead of SRL is a bit to the extreme side of the scale. Chavez was totally outclassed by a slick fighter Southpaw Pernell Whitaker and was losing to MT until the infamous stoppage. Dempsey was outclassed by Tunney and had the loaded glove su****ions against Willard.

            I don't think its totally out of the question to put SRL as low as 25, but that means many fighters from one or two generations will be higher. I think any sports list it makes sense to represent athletes of different eras. I don't see any of the recent greats as DLH, Mayweather, Pacquiao, Chavez, and Whitaker being higher than SRL. People already know about my feelings on Duran.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by HaglerSteelChin View Post
              THose are fair points and the guys you mentioned are all top 10(except Monzon and Arguello) and even I dont have SRL top 10.

              I think there are maybe 13 or 14 guys which you can make a strong case to be higher than SRL but than it becomes murky and subjective.

              For example, Bert Sugar has SRL #25 but many of the guys ahead of him are questionable as Chavez and Dempsey. To have 7 HW's ahead of SRL is a bit to the extreme side of the scale. Chavez was totally outclassed by a slick fighter Southpaw Pernell Whitaker and was losing to MT until the infamous stoppage. Dempsey was outclassed by Tunney and had the loaded glove su****ions against Willard.

              I don't think its totally out of the question to put SRL as low as 25, but that means many fighters from one or two generations will be higher. I think any sports list it makes sense to represent athletes of different eras. I don't see any of the recent greats as DLH, Mayweather, Pacquiao, Chavez, and Whitaker being higher than SRL. People already know about my feelings on Duran.
              It's guys like Bert Sugar who get us all on these forums..
              As famous historians, they create lists which everyone will find fault in.. I happen to agree with Bert on this one, but i bet i'd disagree with at least 50% of his other choices, and so would you.. I mean, he's got Dempsey far too high.. I'd have him just below Leonard in the late 20's but a lot of people would say that's ludicrous, and this is because we won't share the same view point on how fighters should be ranked..
              Just to give you some idea of how i go about it, would be: Quality + Quantity = Greatness, where as some people go mostly by what they've seen in their lifetime..
              This I feel, gives the fighter a huge advantage in that persons mindset and over-glorify's them.. Let's say for example Leonard had an old school active career with 90 odd fights, 15 defeats and a few draws.. Would half of these people be saying he's top 15?.. I doubt it, but let's say it included victories over Pryor, McCallum, Nunn and Mugabe, with some of the defeats and draws coming to lesser fighters.. In my opinion that would put him in the top 15 imo, where as others would disagree and say, "he lost to this bum, and only got a draw with that bum."

              What Leonard did in 39 fights is a truly great achievement, but it still equates to:-

              Quality = A+
              Quantity = C-

              The fighters i have mentioned all score at least straight A's in both..

              Just to put the record straight, I don't rate Monzon or Arguello in the top 10, but I do rate them slightly higher than Leonard, and as a further example of different opinions:-

              Chavez - higher
              Whitaker - lower (with a gun to my head)
              Pac - higher
              Mayweather - lower
              DLH - lower
              Duran - higher

              Comment


              • #47
                If I was to make a list I would probably have him in my top 15 but I could easily see a debate about 15 others being greater.

                Comment


                • #48
                  I wouldn't put SRL in the top 15, his resume is just too lacking in depth. Looking at his resume:
                  Hagler was considered by many to be past prime, and the decision really could have gone either way. Hearns was beating SRL for the first 12 rounds until he gassed out and exposed his weak chin. Most people believed that Hearns deserved to win the decision in the 2nd fight. SRL's performences against Hagler and Hearns were fairly good, but he didn't convincingly prove that he was better than them.

                  Duran was a past-prime blown up blown-up lightweight, and he still managed to beat SRL in the first fight. Benitez has the whole "youngest champion" thing going for him, but he never managed to beat an ATG fighter
                  (except way past prime Duran) so I don't rank him all that highly. Kalule was a solid win, but not a great win. LaLonde was a weak champion fighting at a weight he wasn't used to. Aside from those 6, there really isn't anyone else on SRL's resume worth mentioning.

                  Since SRL didn't really do enough to prove he was better than Hagler and Hearns in head-to-head competition, and both of them (especially Hagler) have significantly better accomplishments outside of their fights with each other, I rank SRL clearly below Hagler and around the same level as Hearns.

                  Originally posted by hollister View Post
                  I'm a huge Leonard fan, but one thing I've always had a problem with is that he didn't really have that many fights, almost like DLH
                  but without all the losses he shouldn't have had lol
                  SRL and DLH are really opposites. DLH had an amazingly large number of fights against good opponents. SRL had amazingly few fights against good opponents for someone that some people think is a top 15 ATG.

                  DLH world champions beaten: 19
                  SRL world champions beaten: 6

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by trk View Post
                    Duran was a past-prime blown up blown-up lightweight, and he still managed to beat SRL in the first fight. Benitez has the whole "youngest champion" thing going for him, but he never managed to beat an ATG fighter


                    Have you ever watched a Duran fight from around 1978-1980?

                    Have you ever seen Duran's fight with Carlos Palomino?


                    benitez has the whole "I beat a legitimate ATG fighter at just seventeen years of age" going for him.



                    Then again,I wouldn't expect a newb to appreciate benitez's accomplishments

                    Originally posted by trk View Post
                    1. Floyd Mayweather Jr.

                    http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...67#post8421467




                    Stick to 24/7 and the hip hop forums in future.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Top 25, definitely. Top 20, maybe. I don't think top 15. It's murky, though.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X
                      TOP