Rocky Marciano G.O.A.T?

[GJC]

Great fighter but not THE greatest.
Interesting thing with Marciano is though that had he taken up boxing earlier and kept going a bit longer it is not beyond reason to think he could have held the title for 11 years from say 24 to 35.
At 24 he would be facing a fading Joe Louis so would have a very good chance of taking the title around 1947.
From then on you are looking at the same fighters who he did beat Walcott, Charles etc albeit a little more prime.
After he retired you are looking at Patterson, I'd fancy Marciano to beat Patterson and his contenders.
The only real problem on the horizon is Liston so you are pretty much looking from 1959, if he faces Liston on schedule, or maybe 1961/1962 if he avoids Liston for a bit.
So it is not inconceivable that had Marciano turned pro at 20 and kept himself in good nick until his mid 30's he could have at last equalled Louis reign which would make a good talking point.
Doesn't make his era any better of course but if you were feeling churlish you could level similar criticisms at Louis.
A lot of the name fighters he beat were past their best such as Baer, Sharkey, Carnera, Schmelling.
Throw in a few light heavy's such as Conn, Braddock and Lewis and you are then left with his contenders. Would Marciano struggled against Godoy, Galento, Simon, Mauriello etc?
Personally I think Walcott improved as he got older like BHop and Moore so whether the Walcott that Louis faced was better than the one Marciano faced is debatable.
Charles was certainly better but he comfortably beat Louis and fought well and lost twice to Marciano.
Don't get me wrong I rate Louis above Marciano but playing devils advocate here......

[Jim Jeffries]

Yes. You owned me.

Obviously. Now if you could just give me a list of the many good fighters that he avoided, I'd be tickled pink.

But you are right, Rocky doesn't belong in a GOAT discussion, mainly because his career vs elite fighters was too short. He started boxing too late, didn't have much amateur experience and turned pro at too late an age. And when he felt himself slipping during the Moore fight, he retired after only 16 fights vs top 10 opponents, a number that is eclipsed many times over by guys like Robinson.

That and I wouldn't exactly call Ezzard Charles a bum, but otherwise, we're cool.

[GJC]

But Rocky's face would be cannon fodder everytime he closed the distance, if Ezzard Charles could mess up Rocky's face, just imagine the damage peak Louis would do.

Only thing to consider is that referees in that era wasn't as quick to stop fights, today there is no way that Marciano would have been allowed to continue as in the Charles fight. I agree that Marciano wouldn't have been too pretty by the end of fight against a prime Louis but chances are he would have been allowed to continue.
So then you have to look at could Louis have ko'd Marciano, possible, but you have to factor in that Marciano spent a total of about 4 seconds on the canvas throughout his career.
Then you have to factor in that none too many got to hear the final bell against Marciano, you had a chance if you were quick on your toes like a Lowry but Louis wasn't a dancer.
So Marciano would have one hell of a punchers chance, the big question is did Louis ever beat anyone as good as a prime Marciano and then the suplimentary question is is there anyone Louis beat that you wouldn't fancy Marciano to also beat?
BTW I still have my devils advocate hat on

[Chunk..]

Obviously. Now if you could just give me a list of the many good fighters that he avoided, I'd be tickled pink.

But you are right, Rocky doesn't belong in a GOAT discussion, mainly because his career vs elite fighters was too short. He started boxing too late, didn't have much amateur experience and turned pro at too late an age. And when he felt himself slipping during the Moore fight, he retired after only 16 fights vs top 10 opponents, a number that is eclipsed many times over by guys like Robinson.

That and I wouldn't exactly call Ezzard Charles a bum, but otherwise, we're cool.

Are you this smug in the real world or just on the Internet LOL?

[Sugarj]

Two great posts from you GJC.

I've said in other posts that I think the Jersey Joe Walcott who faced Louis would probably beat Marciano.......but thats it. I cant think of any more of Louis's challengers who I'd pick to beat Marciano.

And yes Marciano does have a great puncher's chance over any version of Louis. But I think he would be horribly out sped, out boxed and would take some nasty punishment trying. Even old, slow, balding Joe did an ok job of boxing a near prime Marciano for seven rounds. I think prime Joe takes a decision.....but I agree its not a certain call.

[GJC]

Two great posts from you GJC.

I've said in other posts that I think the Jersey Joe Walcott who faced Louis would probably beat Marciano.......but thats it. I cant think of any more of Louis's challengers who I'd pick to beat Marciano.

And yes Marciano does have a great puncher's chance over any version of Louis. But I think he would be horribly out sped, out boxed and would take some nasty punishment trying. Even old, slow, balding Joe did an ok job of boxing a near prime Marciano for seven rounds. I think prime Joe takes a decision.....but I agree its not a certain call.

I agree, i'd favour Louis but if you think back to the first Walcott v Marciano fight, Walcott boxed Marciano's ears off for 13 rounds and made one mistake and end of broadcast.
If Galento can rough up, irritate and catch Louis then Marciano certainly can.
So if you accept that Marciano is going to be in there pitching for 15 rounds and can absorb inhuman punishment, then you have to either bet that:
1) Marciano doesn't catch Louis with Suzie Q, or
2) If he does, Louis can take it.

Either are a big ask

Like I say I rate Louis above Marciano but if they were fighting and the odds were good i'd love to have a bet on Marciano.

Schmelling took a fair amount of punishment before he started to catch Louis I wouldn't think that it is beyond reason to expect that Marciano could do the same.

[EzzardFan]

At the time Marciano became champion Liston had not yet commenced his pro career. At the time Marciano retired Liston had only completed 13 pro fights. In the intervening period as champion, the least experienced fighter Marciano faced was La Starza who'd been through 47 bouts. So Liston wasn't even on the radar.

At the time Marciano retired Floyd Patterson was fighting at less than 175lbs and Ingemar Johansson was in his 12th pro fight.

It should also be noted that Cleveland Williams lost to Bob Satterfield back in 1954, so he would hardly have qualified as a contender for Marciano back then either.

The only viable contender that Marciano could perhaps be accused of ducking was Nino Valdez. Prior to Marciano fighting Charles, Charles had lost to Valdez. However in Rocky's defence Valdez had come off a four fight losing streak where he'd lost to Archie Moore, Bob Baker, Billy Gilliam, and Harold Johnson, none of whom are likely to have troubled Marciano. It should also be noted that by the time of Moore fight, Moore had beaten Valdez a second time. When everything is taken into account, the case for claiming that Marciano ducked Valdez starts to look pretty shaky.

Would Marciano have beaten Valdez? Well if the fight had taken place it would have most likely been in 1955 or 1956 by which time Valdez was getting beat left, right and centre by Bob Baker for a second time, Bob Satterfield, a very young Eddie Machen, and a very young Zora Folly. So yes IMO Marciano would have easily taken Valdez.

In my opinion Marciano would have stood a great chance against 1947 Louis, and woud almost certainly have beaten 1956 glass jawed Floyd Patterson. Liston was officially 9 years Marciano's junior, although in reality the gap was probably more like 6 years. Liston didn't really start to become a force until perhaps 1958 by which time Marciano would have been 35 years old... Marciano would have stood a better chance against Liston than Patterson did. Marciano only had one gear - forward, and a granite chin, not a combination that Liston ever encountered in his career.

[GJC]

The only viable contender that Marciano could perhaps be accused of ducking was Nino Valdez. Prior to Marciano fighting Charles, Charles had lost to Valdez. However in Rocky's defence Valdez had come off a four fight losing streak where he'd lost to Archie Moore, Bob Baker, Billy Gilliam, and Harold Johnson, none of whom are likely to have troubled Marciano. It should also be noted that by the time of Moore fight, Moore had beaten Valdez a second time. When everything is taken into account, the case for claiming that Marciano ducked Valdez starts to look pretty shaky.

Valdes does get thrown up a bit re Marciano but like you say I think Moore pretty much derailed his chances of facing Marciano. I don't have any doubts that Marciano would have taken care of Vades etc.
The only cloud on the horizon is Liston.
As for ducking the up and coming Patterson I remember reading that after Marciano watced the Paterson Johansson fights that he actually went into the gym to see if he could get himself into condition for a comeback as he fancied the job against either.
He soon realised that the spagetti,meatballs and chianti had managed to do what 40 odd opponents hadn't

[EzzardFan]

I remember reading a story somewhere about filming the rounds for the computer simulation between Ali and Marciano. They filmed a dose of 1 min rounds of sparring between the two fighters. At some point during this someone asked Ali what he thought of Marciano, in characteristic Ali style his eyes went wide and he whispered "That man - he's crazy!" then indicated the red welts appearing round his midsection from the body blows he'd received from Marciano.

That was just from memory. Perhaps someone could post a more accurate retelling?

[GJC]

I remember reading a story somewhere about filming the rounds for the computer simulation between Ali and Marciano. They filmed a dose of 1 min rounds of sparring between the two fighters. At some point during this someone asked Ali what he thought of Marciano, in characteristic Ali style his eyes went wide and he whispered "That man - he's crazy!" then indicated the red welts appearing round his midsection from the body blows he'd received from Marciano.

That was just from memory. Perhaps someone could post a more accurate retelling?

Story I heard was that Ali kept flicking his jab at the terrible toupe that Marciano "wore" for the occassion. This enraged Marciano who knew that Ali was trying to ridicule him and for a minute or 2 the fight was on for real, Ali didn't like it too much and so then stopped trying to dislodge Marciano's wig.
They ended up having a gret deal of respect for each other as people and as fighters by the end.