Marciano is overrated - agree or disagree

[theIrish]

Marciano is far from beeing overrated he is one of the most impressive and most courageous fighters that i have ever seen.

Just think about it how he could manage it to get inside and pumle guys around that had 3 inch height and 6 inch reach advantage!

[EzzardFan]

You would actually have a hard time finding a boxer who faced atgs 6 times and never lost.

Let alone almost consecutively! Oh to have been there and witnessed that

[QuietOne]

I have watched Marciano against Louis,Charles Walcott and Moore. And all four of them looked in good shape to me.

Moore was 39 and had won 21 straight going into the Marciano fight. After losing to Marciano he won 11 straight, I don't think he was washed up. It did not look like it either.

Ezzard Charles was 33 when he faced Marciano. 33 is fairly close to an athletes prime and Charles fought well in both fights against Marciano.

Wlacott was 38 and fought well in both fights.

Louis was 37 Had 3 years earlier beaten Walcott twice then lost a Ud to Charles. And was on an 8 fight win streak before Marciano ended his career.

You would actually have a hard time finding a boxer who faced atgs 6 times and never lost.

Moore wasn't washed up, but he was a natural light heavyweight.

Age doesn't tell the whole story, in boxing. Charles was past his prime, as evidenced by his performances just prior to and after the Marciano fights.

The first Louis-Walcott fight is largely considered to be a flat-out robbery. Walcott deserved to win that fight. Walcott was even ahead on the scorecards, in the second fight, before the stoppage. By the time Louis fought Marciano, he was old, past his prime and balding.

[QuietOne]

Louis, Charles, Walcott, Moore, and Marciano were all great fighters. They may have been old but that does not detract from their greatness. Robinson was still a force in his mid-30s and these guys were no different. Walcott almost went the distance with Marciano. Charles actually went the distance, and those were hard rounds. Moore lasted 9 rounds. Those guys were far from past it. Moore was still a force to be reckoned with into the 1960s!

At the time it may have been perceived as a weak era, but those guys possessed skills you just don't see any more. Charles was a member of BMR, he only ended up fighting at HW because everyone ducked him at LHW.

Each of those Marciano fights is a bona-fida classic, so careful what you refer to as a weak era.

Louis was finished. There's no point in debating about that.

Charles was sliding, by the time Marciano fought him. He was a great fighter, but Marciano didn't fight the best version of him. And keep in mind that the first fight was relatively close.

Walcott was schooling Marciano, until the stoppage. He may have been in his prime, but he was still an old fighter in a pretty weak era.

Marciano may have been an exciting fighter, but I don't see how that equals to greatness,.

[geribeetus]

He was in his prime, but he was still an old fighter in a weak era. Yet he was still schooling Marciano.

How hard could that possibly be to understand?

still an old fighter in or near his prime.

once again, not difficult for anyone but you to understand.

[QuietOne]

still an old fighter in or near his prime.

once again, not difficult for anyone but you to understand.

Which is exactly what I said..

[Holtol]

Moore wasn't washed up, but he was a natural light heavyweight.

Age doesn't tell the whole story, in boxing. Charles was past his prime, as evidenced by his performances just prior to and after the Marciano fights.

The first Louis-Walcott fight is largely considered to be a flat-out robbery. Walcott deserved to win that fight. Walcott was even ahead on the scorecards, in the second fight, before the stoppage. By the time Louis fought Marciano, he was old, past his prime and balding.

Maybe he was not in the best era for heavy weights. But 5 atg fighters in one era is fairly good.

I don't think his wins are that cheap if you compare his resume to some other great fighters.

The Klitschkos,Lewis,Holyfield,Tyson,Holmes,Ali,Forman ,Frazier, All have fought old fighters past prime and have some questionable wins. So does Marciano.

[hhascup]

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 9"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 9"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/COMPAQ%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:black;} page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style>I agree with you that say that he is overrated and underrated. I still have him rated in my top 10 BUT just barely.

Here are the facts:

Someone said that Rocky threw 300 punches a round. When Rocky fought Walcott in their 1st match, he only averaged 34 punches a round for the first 12 rounds. It was later on in his Championship reign that he increased his punch total, BUT not close to 300. His top punch count in a round was in the 15th round against Charles, and that was just over 100, and that was just 1 round, the others were a lot lower.

Someone stated about inside fighting, but Rocky never liked to box on the inside. He stated that several times on his TV show "Main Event."

Also, here's an article about just that.

Heavyweight: Toxey Hall: He had a piece of the Rock ... Every Day:

By Pete Ehrmann

Hall was a long time sparring partner of Rocky:

"Most of the sparring partners would get hurt in their rib cage and wore football pads to protect them," said Hall. "But for some reason, that was my toughest part, and it didn't bother me much.
"The thing is that Rocky couldn't do much if you crowded him. But if you gave him room, he'd knock you out. If he hurt me a little bit, I'd turn and run."

The one slight exception was when they were preparing for Marciano's defense against England's Don ****ell in San Francisco on May 16, 1955. Before they got into the ring to spar, Hall mentioned that the champion was carrying his right hand low and exposing his chin.

"Why don't you just hit me then?" Marciano challenged.

So, recalled Hall, "I hit him with a left hook, and down he went."

The press was there, and the incident got worldwide coverage. Marciano said nothing at the time, but the next day when they were doing roadwork together, the champion stopped and said, "Toxey, you son of a b***h, you knocked me down in front of all those guys."

Compare Rocky with Ali.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <u1:WordDocument> <u1:View>Normal</u1:View> <u1:Zoom>0</u1:Zoom> <w oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </u1:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Ali fought 38 different opponents 49 times in 61 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World.

Rocky fought 13 different Opponents 16 times in 49 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World.

Ali fought 38 out of 61 opponents while they were in the top 10. He beat 33 of them

Rocky fought 11 out of 49 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat all 11 of them.

Ali fought boxers that had an average pro record of 33-5-1 when he fought them.

Rocky fought boxers that had an average pro record of 29.7-10.16-1.78 when he fought them.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <u2:WordDocument> <u2:View>Normal</u2:View> <u2:Zoom>0</u2:Zoom> <w oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </u2:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Lets look at the best boxers Rocky fought:

Rocky fought his 1st top 10 contender in his 26th bout when he won a close split decision against LaStarza. He fought another 10 bouts before he fought another top 10 contender when he stopped Rex Layne. When he fought Moore that was only the 11th time Rocky ever fought a boxer that was rated in the top 10 when he fought them.

Rocky fought LaStarza twice (1950 & 1953) and LaStarza was very good and was unbeaten when they fought the 1st time. A lot of people thought LaStarza beat Rocky in that bout. Rocky would stop him in the return bout.

He also fought Walcott (1952 & 1953) and Charles (both in 1954) twice each.

In his 1st bout with Rocky, Charles fought very well, and it was a lot closer then a lot of people thought it would be and people wanted to see a return go. Rocky stopped Charles in the return bout. Charles had over 90 bouts at that time and he had seen better days. He lost to Nino Valdez and Harold Johnson less then a year before he fought Rocky

In the 1st Walcott bout going into the 13th round, the judges had Jersey Joe ahead 7-4, 7-5 and 8-4. In the last 17 bouts before his 1st bout with Rocky, Walcott was 10-7. Rocky stopped Jersey Joe in the return bout in 1 round.

He only fought another 10 boxers that were ever in the Top 10 by Ring at one time or another.

Phil Muscato (December 1949) was last rated in the top 10 in June of 1948, he fought Rocky the next year after losing 4 in a row and 5 out of his last 6. Rocky won by a TKO-5

Johnny Shkor (September 1950) was 29-18-2 at the time he fought Rocky in 1950. He was last rated in 1947. He just got stopped by Walcott and lost his last 7 of 11 bouts. Rocky won by a TKO-6

Rex Layne (July 1951) had a pro record of 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts going into the bout with Rocky. He was a very good boxer, in fact he was one of the best at that time. Rocky won by a KO-6

Freddy Beshore (August 1951) was last rated in October 1950, Rocky fought him in August of 1951. He lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky. Rocky won by a KO-4

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <u3:WordDocument> <u3:View>Normal</u3:View> <u3:Zoom>0</u3:Zoom> <w oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </u3:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Joe Louis (October 1951) who was still good, BUT way past his prime when he fought Marciano. His record was 61-1 with 52 KO's in his 1st 62 bouts. In his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky, Louis was 8-1 with only 3 KO's. Rocky won by a TKO-8

Lee Savold (February 1952) was last rated in 1951, Rocky stopped him in 1952. Savold was also stopped 9 times before his bout with Rocky, including one by an aging Joe Louis. Rocky won by a TKO-6

Bernie Reynolds (May 1952), who lost 4 out of his last 6 bouts before boxing Rocky in 1952. Reynolds was past his prime as the last time he was rated was 1949. Rocky won by a KO-3

Harry Kid Matthews (July 1952) was an excellent boxer with an excellent record, he was 51-0-1 with 36 KO's in his last 52 bouts before he faced Rocky, but he was really was a Light Heavyweight. Rocky won by a KO-2

Don ****ell (May 1955) beat Matthews 3 times and LaStarza. He was also stopped 6 times before he fought Rocky, including a bout with Randy Turpin, a Middleweight, in which he out weighed Turpin by 12 pounds. He was dropped 3 times in the bout. Rocky won by a TKO-9

Archie Moore (September 1955), he was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever. Rocky won by a KO-9

So if you go by this, the only boxers that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them were Walcott, Charles and LaStarza twice each, Louis, Moore, Layne, Matthews and ****ell. So that means he fought only 8 boxers, 11 times that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.

Now try putting guys like Frazier, Tyson, Holmes, Ali, Lewis, Hoyfield, Liston, Foreman the Klitschko brothers and others, in the same time period and match them up against everyone Rocky fought at the same time Rocky fought them, and see what you come up with.

Finally, it's hard to NOT RATE Rocky as an all-time Great because he did beat everyone he fought, finishing with a record of 49-0 with 43 KO's.

[GJC]

Ali fought 37 out of 61 opponents while they were in the top 10. He beat 32 of them

Rocky fought 11 out of 49 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat all 11 of them.

Very informative as ever Harry[?]

Whilst you can't compare Mariciano's resume with Ali do you not think that era's and length of career would have to be weighted re your figures?

Ali was high profile from early on in his career and having a successful amateur career certainly helped. So he was ranking from maybe a year into his career and apart from his ban must have been top ten for the best part of 20 years.
Marciano given his era would have had a slower climb and having a much shorter career probably only ranked top ten himself for 5 or 6 years?

Hopefully you can help me to unravel my point lol.

[QuietOne]

That's an excellent post, hhascup, and I very much appreciate it. Thank you.