Marciano is overrated - agree or disagree

[QuietOne]

You all do realize you're responding to a wind-up merchant right?

Poet

This man is a troll. Please ignore him.

[QuietOne]

Also couldn't you make the case for the first leg of Ali's career being against mostly average competition and past-it contenders and champions?

You could, but Ali still came back and did better in the second part of his career. Kind of a pointless theory, really.

[QuietOne]

Rocky Marciano Beated ATGs

-Joe Louis
-Ezzard Charles
-Archie Moore
-Jersey Joe Walcott
-Don ****ell

You do realize that Louis, Charles and Walcott were all old, right? And that Moore was a light heavyweight.

How is ****ell an all-time great? LOL.

[BigStereotype]

At the time Marciano was largely viewed as a crude swarmer. He is often accused of missing his punches by feet. That's something of an exaggeration but he did miss a lot. Being of pretty much identical dimensions to Marciano I can understand why this was. My height, chest, waist, and reach are all within an inch of his, and I weigh much the same as he did at his lightest, and struggle to maintain my weight like he did.

Pretty much everyone I spar with from lightweight up has a longer reach than I do - like Rocky's mine is 68". Believe me this really limits your options. Give me an inexperienced opponent and I can fight them as a distance, give me anyone else and I have no option but to try and get inside. This also means fighting out of a semi-crouch. You have to resign yourself to taking a beating and looking ****** for the first few rounds.

Short arms also limit the potential for Foremanesque slugging. Although short arms seem to assist with hitting harder (the arm being nearer the body and centre of mass gives it more leverage) you have to be able to reach the opponent to hit them.

With less experienced opponents it's possible to use deceptive footwork to lure them in closer then counter punch, but even then it's necessary to open out your shoulders and stretch your arms out to pull this off.

With big sluggers it's possible to sneak inside their swings like Archie using the armadillo defence then place your shots carefully.

But with a decent boxer you are left with no option but to swarm in. To limit his opportunity for hitting you on the way in, it's necessary to swarm in throwing hooks that have no chance of landing... initially. No point in jabbing because his reach is so much longer. At least the hooks add a bit of cover and kind of double as blocks, and of course they look real nasty. If you can force your opponent back then there's a good chance you'll eventually catch him, especially once he gets tired. None of this will make much sense if you're used to fighting with > 70 inch reach.

With short reach you're resorting to hit any part of him you can. One of my sparring partners asked why I kept striking his forearms, as he felt these were wasted shots, my reply was "see how they feel a few rounds from now".

In order to compete Rocky had to raise his condition to an awesome level. His body had to be toughened to sustain taking a pounding for the full distance. He required sufficient cardio to throw an average of 300 punches per round.

Some people query why if Rocky could punch so hard did it often take him so many rounds to register a KO. The truth is that it took him several rounds to catch his opponent, a few more to beat his guard down (and you need to hit really hard to accomplish that), and only then could he get inside and throw a big KO combo.

If you actually look at Rocky's defensive skills then they are very well evolved. Watch the Archie Moore fight where these skills are very much on display.

Rocky's strengths were:

Condition
Punching power
Swarming
Offensive evasive skills. It's a lot harder to be evasive if you have to go forward! Ali had it easy believe me.
In-fighting. Again watch the Moore fight to see the black art practised by two masters of it.

I believe that Rocky would have easily beaten both Patterson and Johansson. I also believe that he would have stood a decent chance against Liston (not a popular position I know). Liston never had to face a small durable swarmer with a granite chin and great cardio. Liston wasn't used to going more than a few rounds. Liston got scared if he couldn't intimidate his opponent. Liston wasn't used to going backwards, and if he kept going forward then he'd have ended up with Rocky inside him.

There's a great video on YouTube that showcases Marciano's underrated defensive skills, it's been posted on this site recently.

Great post. Really knowledgeable and informative. Marciano is an ATG for sure.

[NChristo]

You do realize that Louis, Charles and Walcott were all old, right? And that Moore was a light heavyweight.

How is ****ell an all-time great? LOL.

The older Walcott was alot better then he was when he was younger.

[QuietOne]

The older Walcott was alot better then he was when he was younger.

While that may be true, it doesn't take away the fact that he was an old fighter and that he was still schooling Marciano.

[geribeetus]

While that may be true, it doesn't take away the fact that he was an old fighter and that he was still schooling Marciano.

yeah, if you hit your prime late, i would say it kinda does take away from the fact that you're older. how hard could that possibly be to understand?

[QuietOne]

yeah, if you hit your prime late, i would say it kinda does take away from the fact that you're older. how hard could that possibly be to understand?

He was in his prime, but he was still an old fighter in a weak era. Yet he was still schooling Marciano.

How hard could that possibly be to understand?

[Holtol]

You do realize that Louis, Charles and Walcott were all old, right? And that Moore was a light heavyweight.

How is ****ell an all-time great? LOL.

I have watched Marciano against Louis,Charles Walcott and Moore. And all four of them looked in good shape to me.

Moore was 39 and had won 21 straight going into the Marciano fight. After losing to Marciano he won 11 straight, I don't think he was washed up. It did not look like it either.

Ezzard Charles was 33 when he faced Marciano. 33 is fairly close to an athletes prime and Charles fought well in both fights against Marciano.

Wlacott was 38 and fought well in both fights.

Louis was 37 Had 3 years earlier beaten Walcott twice then lost a Ud to Charles. And was on an 8 fight win streak before Marciano ended his career.

You would actually have a hard time finding a boxer who faced atgs 6 times and never lost.

[EzzardFan]

He was in his prime, but he was still an old fighter in a weak era.

Louis, Charles, Walcott, Moore, and Marciano were all great fighters. They may have been old but that does not detract from their greatness. Robinson was still a force in his mid-30s and these guys were no different. Walcott almost went the distance with Marciano. Charles actually went the distance, and those were hard rounds. Moore lasted 9 rounds. Those guys were far from past it. Moore was still a force to be reckoned with into the 1960s!

At the time it may have been perceived as a weak era, but those guys possessed skills you just don't see any more. Charles was a member of BMR, he only ended up fighting at HW because everyone ducked him at LHW.

Each of those Marciano fights is a bona-fida classic, so careful what you refer to as a weak era.