How bad did the loss to Leonard hurt Hagler

[GJC]

How can Zale, Basilio, Toney, Cerdan and Jones Jr. Be a greater middle than Monzon?

Monzon made 14 title defences and reigned for 7 years. And retired champion.

How is Basilio a greater Middle, he never even defended the middleweight title and his best weight was 147lb. Jones never even unified and Zale ducked his top contenders, and Cerdan had no longativity at the weight.

Thats the worst list I have ever seen. No mention of Jake Lamotta either?

I have to say i'd certainly cut Basilio from the MW list, he had 2 great performances against SRR but lost about half his fights at MW. Great welter but don't really put him in with the MW's. If you going on P4P's who fought at MW then Fitz and Langford must rank over him.

Zale was champion in as good an era as there were of MW's but fought few of his competition.

Cerdan I've always liked.

Can't believe Ketchell doesn't make your list Sonny?

Still everyone's list is personal

[sonnyboyx2]

I have to say i'd certainly cut Basilio from the MW list, he had 2 great performances against SRR but lost about half his fights at MW. Great welter but don't really put him in with the MW's. If you going on P4P's who fought at MW then Fitz and Langford must rank over him.

Zale was champion in as good an era as there were of MW's but fought few of his competition.

Cerdan I've always liked.

Can't believe Ketchell doesn't make your list Sonny?

Still everyone's list is personal

yes Basilio is rightly included on my list, Basilio took part in more "Fights of the year" than any other fighter, he was a fantastic value-for-money crowd pleasing fighter who beat the great Ray Robinson... Stanley Ketchel should rightly make my list but i deliberately left him off and added Hopkins so as to stop the flak from some of the goons who frequent the site.. because a fighter like Monzon made 14 title defences and Cerdan only made the one defence does not IMO make Monzon a greater fighter than Cerdan, in a head-to-head i would take Cerdan to beat Monzon & Hopkins yet Hopkins made 20+ defences.. My list is solely based on who i feel is MY Top 10 greatest middleweights... if Toney was in a head-to-head with Monzon i see Toney beating him, just like all the others i rate above him, could Monzon beat Steele, Ketchel, Fullmer, Calzaghe, Walker... it is not `carved in stone` saying he would... i am not going to get into trashing or calling the career of Carlos Monzon because that is not what this topic is about.. its about Marvin Hagler and his loss to Ray Leonard.. some guy wrote that Monzon was the greatest middleweight in history at which i said he barely makes my Top 10 at which another guy then claimed i know nothing about boxing
the reality IMO is that its him who knows nothing about boxing..

[Suckmedry]

1/. Ray Robinson
2/. Roy Jones jr.
3/. Harry Grebb
4/. Marcel Cerdan
5/. James Toney
6/. Marvin Hagler
7/. Carmen Basilio
8/. Tony Zale
9/. Carlos Monzon
10/. Bernard Hopkins

honourable mention to Freddie Steels, Stanley Ketchel, Charley Burley, Mickey Walker, Gene Fullmer, Randolph Turpin, Bob Fitzsimmons & Joe Calzaghe

that list is confusing and inconsistent, much like the rest of your posts

[Suckmedry]

How is Roy #2

I love JT but Idk about him being #5, if he makes it he deserves to be on the cusp of the 10. Monzon at #9??? He was arguably the best MW ever! RJJ ahead of Hagler? Hopkins at #10? deserves to be higher.

[carlos slim]

wjesus sonnyboy.. what a chaotic mess....toney, basilio burley calzaghe belong no where near a top 10 atg list....

[Snopkins]

Source for this????

Marvelous Marvin Hagler is in a fight in which there can be no winner. The former world middleweight champion will oppose his wife Bertha's attempt to obtain temporary custody of their children in Hingham District Court today, Hagler's attorney said yesterday.

Bertha Hagler filed a family abuse petition Friday seeking custody of the children and a restraining order prohibiting Hagler access to their Hanover home. Bertha Hagler filed the civil petition "to let the court know she fears physical harm," a court officer said yesterday.

One of Hagler's associates said yesterday that Bertha may have sought the court action to snap Hagler out of a depression that came over him after losing his epic match with Sugar Ray Leonard in April. Since the fight, Hagler has had sporadic contact with family, friends and business associates.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/access/59507556.html?dids=59507556:59507556&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jul+01%2C+1987&author=Steven+Marantz%2C+Globe+Staff&pub=Boston+Globe+(pre-1997+Fulltext)&desc=HAGLER+HEADS+TO+COURT+IN+A+FIGHT+FOR+CUSTODY&pqatl=google

The estranged wife of Marvelous Marvin Hagler has demanded that the former middleweight champion seek treatment for ******* and alcohol abuse before he is allowed to return home, a Boston television station reported Thursday.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/orlandosentinel/access/93045565.html?dids=93045565:93045565&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jul+04%2C+1987&author=Compiled+by+Derek+Catron&pub=Orlando+Sentinel&desc=HAGLER'S+WIFE+DEMANDS+THAT+BOXER+SEEK+DRUG+TREATMENT&pqatl=google

When they returned home to Hanover, Hagler was an emotional wreck. "He cried a lot," Bertha says. "I got him to talk about it a little. He felt he did get robbed. He said, 'I'll never be able to get my life and marriage together until I get my belts back.' " In the end, she says, he grew colder and more remote.

"I was trying to get him to talk to me," Bertha says. "He'd say, 'I don't want to talk about it.' I'd say, 'You have to talk about it. You can't go on like this.' It was frustrating for me because I couldn't get to him. The more I tried, the more distant he became." Hagler grew further from her, physically as well as emotionally. He spent more time away from home. "I thought, Maybe he'll wake up and find there's more to life than drinking and partying," she says.

She believes that her husband's central problem was the outcome of the fight and that he remains angry with her and the Petronellis over it. "He's bitter toward all three of us," she says. "He's going to have to come down to reality. He knows the mistakes he made in this fight, and he has to deal with them."

The differences between Marvin and Bertha became public in late June, when Bertha filed an abuse petition in Hingham (Mass.) District Court that claimed, "Marvin threw me out of the house. He pushed me. He hit the car with a boulder. I am in fear of him." A judge issued a temporary order barring Hagler from their house and gave Bertha custody of their five children, for the time being. Hagler did not contest the order and moved to an apartment in Boston. The incident was, she says, the first and only time he had ever been violent with her. And now she thinks she may have acted too hastily.

The story made all the papers, of course, but that was only the beginning. A few days later, sports anchor John Dennis of WNEV-TV in Boston reported that Hagler was involved in "widespread abuse of both alcohol and *******." Dennis went on to say: "Those closest to Marvin Hagler say it was that decision on April 6 that started him on the downward spiral. Almost immediately after his return home to Boston, they [friends and family] say Marvin's despair over the loss steered him toward alcohol and *******."

Dennis, an old friend of Hagler's, insisted his sources were solid. "They came to me," he said.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1066497/3/index.htm

[gibo]

Same as the loss leonard suffered to Hector Macho Camacho. But worse, leonard got KO'D

[Tuggers1986]

no i'mnot, it's just my personal opinion that Hagler won. i have no bones about the decision.

What he's biased about is saying Hagler was made to look ordinary. no way in hell did that happen. Leonard looked like he was about to be put away at times. He's acting like Leonard dominated the fight and won a clear cut decision. He's acting like it was Mayweather vs Marquez.

I agree with you.

People have argued for years about who won that fight. Yet the thread starter said Leoanrd made Hagler look ordinary.

How the fcuk did he make him look ordinary when a hell of a lot of people believe Hagler won the fight.

[HaglerSteelChin]

The whole hagler vs leonard is like beating a dead horse. The fight was won in the negtiation table when SRL got to pick his gloves, ring size, and made sure it was 12 rds instead of 15. Hagler wanted leonard earlier in his career. The fact is that both of them were good friends until the fight.

I believe after the Tony Sibson fight or around that time hagler had a fight and he joked with SRL about them having a big payday and getting the fight done. SRL interviewd hagler and did a documentary about Hagler before his second fight with Obeljimas(Sp?), and they were good mates.

After the Roldan fight; hagler practically begged SRL for the fight. SRL after the Howard fight knew he was losing it and retired again.

The accumelative effect of the fights with Roldan, Duran, Hearns , and Mugabi slowed Hagler down. Sure SRL was idle but he didnt take those beatings and his body recovered. Also Hagler's age has always been in question? Some say he was atleast 4 years older than his reported age.
I have some of his early fights against Watts and Cyclone Hart; he looks older than 22 in 1976.

The bottom line is that SRL won the split decision. I don't think SRL won all the early Rds as people say. Round 3 could have gotten either way; i scored it even and RD 5 cleary went to hagler. Rd12 SRL just danced and Hagler won that easily and i i have winning 7,8, and also 10. So i have hagler winning 5 and one even. So my final score was 115-114 Leonard. RD9 is hard to judge. Hagler had SRL on the ropes but the fact that SRL was able to get off the ropes with flurries and capture the drama made me give him the RD. Some say it was pitty patt but i can tell you they were solid punches.
But i am sure some gave the RD to Hagler.

Richard Steele never took a point away for SRL hitting after the bell which he did several times, if one point is taken away than i have it even and Hagler retains his title.

[DeepSleep]

How is Roy #2

I love JT but Idk about him being #5, if he makes it he deserves to be on the cusp of the 10. Monzon at #9??? He was arguably the best MW ever! RJJ ahead of Hagler? Hopkins at #10? deserves to be higher.

Although I don't agree with Sonny's list I can see his reasoning for some of his picks. I'm pretty sure he picked Roy at #2 not based on his resume but based on the fact that he thinks Roy would beat the others on the list. Same reasoning for Toney.

For example I think Hopkins is the more accomplished MW than Roy Jones Jr. but I think a prime Jones would beat a prime Hopkins fairly easily, which makes me wonder how to actually go about make these lists. Should I rank them based on who accomplished more or who would likely win the most heads up match ups?