Could Muhammad Ali lay on the ropes against Mike Tyson?

[Benny Leonard]

Whether or not Tyson was in his prime had nothing to do with Douglas' game plan.

When you have a fighter that is small like Tyson and has to be at least near peak physical and mental condition to fight...ahhhh...yes it does make a difference because there is no way to off-set the opponents game-plan when that opponent is prepared to fight. Douglas didn't have to make big adjustments and could keep doing the same thing over and over again.

Tyson didn't prepare properly both mentally and physically for the fight so there was no way he could adjust. He was on his own. He had no proper trainer to not only prepare him for the fight but nobody in his corner to get on his ass to make sure he adjusts. Tyson looked completely lost and unsure of himself during the rounds.

His stamina was poor because he didn't do his road-work like he should have so he will burn out quicker. His timing was way off which most likely had to do with a change in how he prepared. Rooney had him do specific drills handed down to him by D'Amato that prepared Tyson's hand-speed, timing, and accuracy. Unlike others during that time with Tyson, Rooney would not let Tyson get away with anything. D'Amato was about making it "perfect." Rooney was the only one with balls to tell Tyson to do it again to make it perfect.

When you have a short reach like Tyson and don't have the height advantage...Timing and Accuracy make a Huge difference. Using the jab effectively is key. Using combinations is key. Moving your head is key...especially after you throw your last punch. Knowing and measuring distance properly is key.


To sum it up: Douglas was prepared to fight and had a game-plan...Tyson wasn't. That can make the difference.

[QuietOne]

When you have a fighter that is small like Tyson and has to be at least near peak physical and mental condition to fight...ahhhh...yes it does make a difference because there is no way to off-set the opponents game-plan when that opponent is prepared to fight. Douglas didn't have to make big adjustments and could keep doing the same thing over and over again.

Tyson didn't prepare properly both mentally and physically for the fight so there was no way he could adjust. He was on his own. He had no proper trainer to not only prepare him for the fight but nobody in his corner to get on his ass to make sure he adjusts. Tyson looked completely lost and unsure of himself during the rounds.

His stamina was poor because he didn't do his road-work like he should have so he will burn out quicker. His timing was way off which most likely had to do with a change in how he prepared. Rooney had him do specific drills handed down to him by D'Amato that prepared Tyson's hand-speed, timing, and accuracy. Unlike others during that time with Tyson, Rooney would not let Tyson get away with anything. D'Amato was about making it "perfect." Rooney was the only one with balls to tell Tyson to do it again to make it perfect.

When you have a short reach like Tyson and don't have the height advantage...Timing and Accuracy make a Huge difference. Using the jab effectively is key. Using combinations is key. Moving your head is key...especially after you throw your last punch. Knowing and measuring distance properly is key.


To sum it up: Douglas was prepared to fight and had a game-plan...Tyson wasn't. That can make the difference.

You're trying to explain how Tyson could've fought differently, if a whole series of events were different. That's fine. But what does it have to do with what Douglas' strategy was? He didn't know how prepared Tyson would be. Douglas just walked into the fight with two things: no fear and a game plan.

Of course there would be a difference if Tyson was in his prime. But that doesn't change the fact that his strategy was the best way to beat to him.

All I said was that Ali would wanna do what Douglas did: tie him up every time he gets too close. For some reason, you found a need to explain how Tyson's training camp went.

[Benny Leonard]

You're trying to explain how Tyson could've fought differently, if a whole series of events were different. That's fine. But what does it have to do with what Douglas' strategy was? He didn't know how prepared Tyson would be. Douglas just walked into the fight with two things: no fear and a game plan.



All I said was that Ali would wanna do what Douglas did: show no fear, outbox him from the outside and tie him up if Tyson came too close.

All fighters have fear but I understand what you are getting at...but it still doesn't quite hold up because other fighters were willing to beat Tyson as well and they didn't. Things change when your game-plan doesn't quite work out like you prepared for in your head. Douglas didn't have to adjust like I think Tyson could have forced him to do if he himself was prepared.
Tyson forced other fighters to change up their game-plan plan because of the way he fought/attacked.

Douglas had a field day on Tyson's skull from round 1 because Tyson ability to react was off from not training correctly. That's what drills are for to help you prepare your reaction time. True speed with Tyson actually can in the form of his ability to react and counter. That was not there. That is trained into you and needs to be constantly trained every day in camp.

Take Baseball for instance and Albert Pujols: As great as he is as a hitter, he would not be nearly as effective if he didn't take the many swings in practice as he did. Not just in the months of spring-training but All Year Round. He practices for every single pitch. Throw him a fast-ball, and his reaction time is in peak form to hit the ball with accuracy and power. Throw him a curve-ball, and he knows how to adjust for it. Why? because he prepared himself all year long to do it.

Tyson's ability to make you miss and counter with his own shots forced fighters to think twice about what they were doing. That was missing.
There was little spring in Tyson's legs as well...which has to do with preparation.

Holyfield and Lewis both had no fear and the same game plan and it worked for them. Of course there would be a difference if Tyson was in his prime. But that doesn't change the fact that their strategy was the best way to beat to him.

It's a nice strategy but when you have a man in front of you that is ill-preprared to fight...it is a major bonus.


That strategy can work on anybody then because having no fear (which is overstated) and a game-plan is a bonus for any fighter...especially when that fighter is going up against an ill-prepared fighter.

I say "no fear" is overstated because Floyd Patterson was quoted as saying he needed fear to win. Tyson used fear as well. Fear helped them train and prepare to be at their best. It's actually when Tyson's fear level went down and his confidence over-inflated, that is he went to ****. He was on his own making poor choices, not preparing himself, fearing nobody on his team; and that wasn't good.

How about this: If you don't fear Ali's mouth, you'll beat him...as proven by Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes, and Trevor Berbick.

[The Noose]

He would have tied him up.

Many of Tysons opponents were good at just tying him up and frustrating him.

[Benny Leonard]

He would have tied him up.

Many of Tysons opponents were good at just tying him up and frustrating him.

he needs to tie him up or else it will look like this





Post fight interview

[QuietOne]

All fighters have fear but I understand what you are getting at...but it still doesn't quite hold up because other fighters were willing to beat Tyson as well and they didn't. Things change when your game-plan doesn't quite work out like you prepared for in your head. Douglas didn't have to adjust like I think Tyson could have forced him to do if he himself was prepared.
Tyson forced other fighters to change up their game-plan plan because of the way he fought/attacked.

Douglas had a field day on Tyson's skull from round 1 because Tyson ability to react was off from not training correctly. That's what drills are for to help you prepare your reaction time. True speed with Tyson actually can in the form of his ability to react and counter. That was not there. That is trained into you and needs to be constantly trained every day in camp.

Take Baseball for instance and Albert Pujols: As great as he is as a hitter, he would not be nearly as effective if he didn't take the many swings in practice as he did. Not just in the months of spring-training but All Year Round. He practices for every single pitch. Throw him a fast-ball, and his reaction time is in peak form to hit the ball with accuracy and power. Throw him a curve-ball, and he knows how to adjust for it. Why? because he prepared himself all year long to do it.

Tyson's ability to make you miss and counter with his own shots forced fighters to think twice about what they were doing. That was missing.
There was little spring in Tyson's legs as well...which has to do with preparation.

It's a nice strategy but when you have a man in front of you that is ill-preprared to fight...it is a major bonus.

That strategy can work on anybody then because having no fear (which is overstated) and a game-plan is a bonus for any fighter...especially when that fighter is going up against an ill-prepared fighter.

Like I said, it's fine if you wanna explain how Tyson could've fought differently, if a whole series of events were played out differently. And not once, in this thread, did I talk about what stage of his career he was in. All I said was that Douglas went into the fight with the right strategy, and that Ali would wanna use that strategy.

Yes, the Douglas fight could've possibly played out differently, had things been different for Tyson. But are you gonna try and tell me that Douglas didn't have the right strategy for someone like Tyson? That he should've been scared? That he shouldn't haveboxed from the outside and to tie Tyson up every time he got close?

I say "no fear" is overstated because Floyd Patterson was quoted as saying he needed fear to win. Tyson used fear as well. Fear helped them train and prepare to be at their best. It's actually when Tyson's fear level went down and his confidence over-inflated, that is he went to ****. He was on his own making poor choices, not preparing himself, fearing nobody on his team; and that wasn't good.

Fear might've worked well for those fighters, but that doesn't mean it works well for all fighters.

Tyson looked for fear in his opponents, as that gave him a mental edge. If his opponent wasn't intimidated by him, he wouldn't have that mental edge.

He tried to play the bully and intimidate his opponents. Douglas and Holyfield weren't intimidated and they both ended up out-bullying the bully.

How about this: If you don't fear Ali's mouth, you'll beat him...as proven by Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes, and Trevor Berbick.

I don't see what this has to do with my original post, but I'll comment that Tyson wasn't as mentally strong as Frazier or Norton. If someone wasn't intimated by him, a big part of Tyson would crumble.

As for Spinks, Holmes and Berbick, I would say that Ali being very far past his prime and experiencing symptoms of Parkinson's had something to do with those losses.

[boxingbuff]

All fighters have fear but I understand what you are getting at...but it still doesn't quite hold up because other fighters were willing to beat Tyson as well and they didn't. Things change when your game-plan doesn't quite work out like you prepared for in your head. Douglas didn't have to adjust like I think Tyson could have forced him to do if he himself was prepared.
Tyson forced other fighters to change up their game-plan plan because of the way he fought/attacked.

Douglas had a field day on Tyson's skull from round 1 because Tyson ability to react was off from not training correctly. That's what drills are for to help you prepare your reaction time. True speed with Tyson actually can in the form of his ability to react and counter. That was not there. That is trained into you and needs to be constantly trained every day in camp.

Take Baseball for instance and Albert Pujols: As great as he is as a hitter, he would not be nearly as effective if he didn't take the many swings in practice as he did. Not just in the months of spring-training but All Year Round. He practices for every single pitch. Throw him a fast-ball, and his reaction time is in peak form to hit the ball with accuracy and power. Throw him a curve-ball, and he knows how to adjust for it. Why? because he prepared himself all year long to do it.

Tyson's ability to make you miss and counter with his own shots forced fighters to think twice about what they were doing. That was missing.
There was little spring in Tyson's legs as well...which has to do with preparation.






It's a nice strategy but when you have a man in front of you that is ill-preprared to fight...it is a major bonus.


That strategy can work on anybody then because having no fear (which is overstated) and a game-plan is a bonus for any fighter...especially when that fighter is going up against an ill-prepared fighter.

I say "no fear" is overstated because Floyd Patterson was quoted as saying he needed fear to win. Tyson used fear as well. Fear helped them train and prepare to be at their best. It's actually when Tyson's fear level went down and his confidence over-inflated, that is he went to ****. He was on his own making poor choices, not preparing himself, fearing nobody on his team; and that wasn't good.

How about this: If you don't fear Ali's mouth, you'll beat him...as proven by Joe Frazier, Ken Norton, Leon Spinks, Larry Holmes, and Trevor Berbick.

Muhammad Ali lost 3 out of his last 4 fights.He was old and washed up.

He got beat by Frazier and Norton after his 3 1/2 year lay-off.

It had nothing to do with fear of his mouth.Foreman and Liston did not fear his mouth,but both got KO'd.

[The Noose]

I think Ali could have taken most of Tysons shots if he had to. He may of got hurt or even knocked down but Ali would have been a nightmare for Tyson.

[Benny Leonard]

Muhammad Ali lost 3 out of his last 4 fights.He was old and washed up.

He got beat by Frazier and Norton after his 3 1/2 year lay-off.

It had nothing to do with fear of his mouth.Foreman and Liston did not fear his mouth,but both got KO'd.

I was making a point. Think about it a little more and its important to keep what is said about Tyson. If you need me to clarify it more...let me know.

[Sugarj]

I tend to agree with the opinion that it would be foolish for any version of Ali to retreat to the ropes and take peak Tyson's punches. Even with his fantastic chin it wouldn't be a wise move or a smart gameplan.

Frazier and Norton were precise punchers like Tyson, Ali didn't rope a dope these two very successfully. Only Tyson was so much faster with single punches and in combination.....arguably more powerful too. Foreman was wilder and slower....although very powerful. So Ali had far more success with George.

Ali was one of the most intelligent men in the ring. Whether we are talking about peak 1966 Ali or the ring wise Ali of 1974, theres no way he would have approached a fight with Tyson with a poor strategy.

I'd bet that the 1966 Ali's plan would be to jab and run frantically as he did early on in the first Liston fight. I think he would do this for 5 rounds or so, after which he would start laying down more on his punches as Tyson settled down in pace.

I think the 1974 Ali would also rely on movement as he did in Frazier 2, but would have worked well on his clinching, holding and leaning on.......again Frazier 2.

Would prime Ali have beaten prime Tyson? Probably, but by no means certain.

Would rope a dope be a good idea? No way!!