I dont get Harry Greb's boxing Record

[r.burgundy]

[/B]



Did you not write the above? Now that I've exposed you again you want to change the parameters of the deal you made? Lol!!

A. I already showed it.
B. You used the word "monkey" as a description of a poster...that is racist.
C. I NEVER said Frazier fought everybody to begin with.
D. I know tons more about Greb than you and I'll be happy to give you the links once you turn over the points you owe me.

im really startin to think your illiterate.i gave an opinion on what i thjought of holmes resume.my opinion is not a lie being as how it is not a fact

im black socrates.so why would i use monkey to describe a poster.if you took time to read instead of bein so quick to attack.i said he used a monkey smiley in reference to me goofus

[JAB5239]

im really startin to think your illiterate.i gave an opinion on what i thjought of holmes resume.my opinion is not a lie being as how it is not a fact

im black socrates.so why would i use monkey to describe a poster.if you took time to read instead of bein so quick to attack.i said he used a monkey smiley in reference to me goofus

Look Ron Im getting tired of going back and forth with you. If I misread the "monkey" statement you have my apology. As far as Greb goes you're in the severe minority with you thinking. You seem very close minded or it could be you're just being stubborn. About Frazier....we both have our opinions. I done entirely disagree with your opinion I just think there is more to take into consideration than you're willing to do in this particular thread. And Im pretty sure you did say Holmes fought everybody. That wouldn't be an opinion, but a statement of fact. Its no matter. I don't want your points and I've tired of flaming and going in circles. Lets just get back to civil debate. If we agree, cool. If we don't....so what. Cool?

[bklynboy]

as far as greb to floyd,greb died in 26.somebody born in 1920 would be 90,so there arent many around who saw both.my father is 63.he says the best boxers he's ever seen were in order ray robinson,ali,ray leonard,duran,and mayweather.he said he's never seen anybody switch from offense to defense as fluidly as mayweather.

I wasn't clear. I don't think many people saw both Greb and Mayweather (that's a span of more than 70 years). The point I was trying to make was that many 30 and 40 year old professionals and boxing insiders saw Greb and then, in the next several years saw many excellent middleweight from Tiger Flowers and Mickey Walker to Zale, Graziano, La Motta and Robinson. Not to mention fighters in other divisions, Barney Ross, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong, Joe Louis.

Harry Greb was consistently ranked among the best almost always in the TOP 5 and often in the TOP 3 behind SRR and Henry Armstrong.

Let me restate this:

A boxing insider (fighter, trainer, promoter) gets in the game at 15 or so and stays in the fight game until 65 or so. Many started younger and many, such as Cus d'Amato, stayed in the game way past 65.

Say you're 30 years old in 1915 you would have seen (if you were lucky enough to have been there) Ketchel and Johnson in their prime. At 40 you would have seen Greb and Dempsey, Harry Wills and Tiger Flowers, Benny Leonard and others. In your 50s you would be seeing Barney Ross, Henry Armstrong and Joe Louis. In your 60s you would be seeing Willie Pep and SRR.

You have seen some kick-ass ****ing fighters in your professional career. This professional man in his 60s will not be romanticizing a fighter who came along while he was in his 30s.

If it was the consensus of boxing professionals that Harry Greb is among the TOP 5 of that era I believe it. It's up to us to compare that era with this era.

[McGoorty]

Newspaper decisions were quite a feature in that era, no decision was made by the referee so they went with the majority of newspapers reporting.
Re judging a fighter you haven't seen you just have to take a view maybe read some writers who did see them and whose opinion you respect and also take into account fighters that they beat who you have seen. Regarding Greb there is a fair bit of footage of Tunney, Walker and Loughran floating around tha shows them to be great fighters so any figter holding wins over them must himself have been pretty good, no?

Yeah Greb only stopped when a sick man and Tunney a bigger man, 299 fights, dominated, no question Greg was great, after all it's not the method that matters just the result. Regarding ND newspaper verdicts, that situation was mostly an American peculiarity during that period. All the big fights in Australia were 20 rounds with official judges, so there is much more certainty of the verdict. Darcy has no newspaper decisions on his record, handy for us.

[McGoorty]

Harry Greb's Best Wins: (number of wins over that opponent)

Gene Tunney (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
Tommy Loughran (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jimmy Slattery (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Maxie Rosenbloom (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jack Dillon (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Battling Levinsky (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mike McTigue (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mickey Walker (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
Tiger Flowers Hall of Famer – World Champion Middleweight Champion
Mike Gibbons (1) – Hall of Famer
Tommy Gibbons (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Kid Norfolk (1) – Hall of Famer
Billy Miske (2) – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Jack Blackburn Hall of Famer as a trainer
Al McCoy (2) – World Middleweight Champion
George Chip (2) – World Middleweight Champion
Johnny Wilson (3) – World Middleweight Champion
Eddie McGoorty (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
Willie Meehan (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
Gunboat Smith (2) – Top Heavyweight
Bill Brennan (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Augie Ratner - Defeated four world champions in his career
Young Ahearn
Jeff Smith
Soldier Bartfield
Leo Houck
Tommy Robson
Bartley Madden
Tommy Robson
Joe Borrell
Bob Moha
Chuck Wiggins
Jack Renault
Charley Weinert
Billy Shade
Homer Smith
Lou Bogash
Bryan Downey
Jackie Clark
Jimmy Delaney
Jack Red****
Roland Todd
Allentown Joe Gans

Jeff Smith also was a "claimant for the world MW title" was the Australian version or the WMWT, the so called champion Al McCoy was beaten by all of the top 10 MW's except of course Darcy who would've made very short work of McCoy, McCoy lost a few to Chip, Clabby and others. You would think in this day and age when there are a hundred odd WORLD CHAMPIONS and 7 to infinity per division No one today can point the finger, in fact after Walker the division usually had two champs for well over a decade when it stabilised with the reign of underated (today) Tony Zale. Anyway after Darcy we have Greb to thank for dominating the rest.

[McGoorty]

Re the win over Norfolk, I wonder why the IBHOF has it the other way around: "Norfolk dropped the “Human Windmill” in the first round and captured the 10 round newspaper decision"?

Does BoxRec, where the fight is listed as a win for Greb, have one group of historians/experts who votes in Greb's favour - while another group at IBHOF reaches the opposite conclusion (after reviewing the same newspaper reports, I presume)? Seems strange to me... and if the fight was that close, would a draw not be a fair result?

I saw that BoxRec had Kid Norfolk getting a D.Q. Win in that fight, but is it accurate ??

[McGoorty]

he looks terrible in his training and I think i've seen him spar. He may have been good in his day but nobody is going to convince me he'd beat Duran, Leonard etc


Harry Greb is the Bruce Lee of boxing, nobody has seen him fight yet he's p4p the greatest

I don't think those early films of big names sparring, I have seen a lot of them and I am yet to see one where they don't appear to ham it up a bit bit. Greb sparring Philadelphia Jack is just playing it up, just remember their fancy for Vaudeville, I mean nobody would survive long back then mucking about in a real 20's fight, does it look Fair Dinkum to any of you.

[ghns1133]

maybe if u dont understand you should read about him.

[McGoorty]

you keep sating "better fighters".well i ask better in terms of what?it cant be based on skill cause most of them havent been seen.at feather i think pacqiuo would maul anybody pep faced,pep included.so using pac as my example,how on earth can we say somebody like ray famechon,or sandy saddler is better than barrera,morales or marquez?they arent.but being that pep is over 200 fights,how is it fair to manny when you can a case that fought better comp in less fights?

but lets take an even more logical look.there arent 20 good fighters in any 1 division today,regardless of sanctioning body or ranking.but somebody has got to be a champ and somebody has got to be ranked 1-20,so i thinks its silly to assume that pep fought 20 capable opponents regardless of what bert sugar says.this is no bias,or hate.its just simple math.the most loaded div in i can recall was middle with bhop,roy,toney,mccallum etcand more recently welter and super middle and those were at tops 10 fighters deep.no way in hell these old fighters fought 20+ credible fighters

First you said that there's a small number of decent fighters in each division then seem to claim that moderns are better BECAUSE OF THAT ???// Not logical, do you have any idea how many boxers needed cash back in the 00's, twenties and thirties for instance in the U.S. alone. Slums galore, abject poverty and money to be made all you had to do to get it was to risk getting your head punched in. instead of say twenty good jr WW's, there were hundreds of hungry fighters in every city trying to make it into the bigger money fights. Those condition's are still alive in Asia, East Rurope Mexico so the baton has passed. Today's fighters are given """WORLD Interim CHAMPION'''' Belts, some very ordinary boxers are goin' around the world telling us that they are 3 Weight div. world's CHAMPEEN's (Fitzsimmons, Ross, Armstrong, Canzoneri anyone ???), and Charley Burley couldn't even get a shot ??? and they say that the belt that Jeff Smith, Eddie McGoorty and Les Darcy wern't proper world Champs, How Absurd, insulting even to guys who had to survive and conquer in 20 round fights with some real destroyers. AND 5 and 6 oz gloves, these men were iron hard, Ray leonard would've busted his hands on Greb's head and Harry would carve him up, bit like a hairdresser fighting Spartacus in the arena. Today's fighters should forego a few months training a year and fight more often instead of trying to turn a 16 Million dollar paycheck into an 18 Million dollars and taking 12 months to sign, and then maybe they'd get a 150 or more fight's experience and we might produce a true top 20er.So welcome to Harry's world of sacrifice and pain,............ ......... What is the WBU or WBf or WWWWWWUUUFFFBBBBB , WHAT ???

[McGoorty]

this post is filled with tom foolery.1st off,just like any other sport,boxing advances.better athletes,more sophisticated techniques.the more athletic you are the more your capable of doing.and thats not a theory,thats a fact.i can walk you across some sports if you like to show this.so to say a fighter out the 20's,who you or nobody else on here could have possibly laid eyes on is better is just ignorant.

post proof that there are less boxers today please?
fighters fought once a month cause purses where tiny,so fights were less complicated to make.but a better buisness model,doesnt mean fighters are less talented.i agree that it causes less matchups to be made tho

there are way more gyms and clubs than ever before.especially do to the fact that in this age of million dollar purses,thats where alotta fighters choose to put there money.larry holmes,joe frazier,kelly pavlik,mark breland to name a few

to say there are less trainers with experience is also silly.prize fighting as we know it is little over a century old.so therefore guys like bouie fisher and alton merkeson would have way more experience than a trainer out of the 40,50,or even 60's.only way a trainer out the 20's or 30's could have similar experience is if they were doing it since birth.

yes refereing is sometimes poor,but there are way more rules and these prima donnas need to be protected.depending on what period your talking about boxers used to have a 30 count to get up from a k.d.if saddler was fighting in this age he would lead boxing in d.q's.he wasnt tough.he was just plain dirty.

heavys in those days were less than 200lbs so of course they would move faster.but marciano,and louis,werent exactly speed demons so i dont know what heavys your refering to that are moving so quickly.mike tyson probly has the fastest hands in heavy history,and he's modern

nobody cared,cause less money was at stake.you wanted to make alot of money.you had to fight.alotta those guys back then had 2 and 3 jobs.in this day and age of million $ purses,i cant in call anybody a ducker.lets look at judah,he took a tough fight with baldomir before floyd and lost.that cost him about 3 mil.bad gamble.

they same way contenders were manufactured now,is the same way they were back in the days.its called marketing.only difference is there is no film all of those old contenders so nobody can see how bad or good they were.we just have to take peoples words.

# of k.os we see today is cause guys are much bigger and stronger.this is just a fact.no need to dispute it.in boxing moreso than other sports,size really matters.imagine if mike tyson or lennox lewis hit some of the 170 lb guys joe louis fought.that would be a homicide

and as usual,you guys who live in the fantasy world miss the point.even if everything does go to 3d,we still have tons of video of the 2d guys.and if you think a newspaper article of the hometown hero is better than your own 2 eyes you might need your head examined

And you call yourself an expert ????????? HAW HAW HAW, less fights equals a better fighter than The vastly more experienced man forged in regular combat. I can just imagine JULIUS CAESAR allowing his Xth Leg. to go to a callithstenics camp with all the modern conveniences and have their mummies tuck them in at night, instead of forced marches and Daily weapons drills, and the odd crucifixion to let 'em know who's boss, cause all that old fashioned army stuff they learned in WAR, is just stoopid old people trying to look wise. You see warriors sleep on the ground rain, hail or bombardment. The boxers of old fought under rules that remind one of the U.F.C. more than this 12 rd run away fests we've had since the mid 80's. Why don't you make two TOP 100 lists, one for ANY fighter who has never been filmed, and another for everybody who has been, then both camps might end up happy. But then how do you compare Bantams to Light Heavies, oops another Quandary.