Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters List......Give Me Your Opinion!

[sonnyboyx2]

I'm pretty sure that Futch boxed, he said he often sparred with the great Joe Louis, not sure about Glancy or Arcel. I'd be somewhat surprised if they didn't.

One can't deny Bert Sugar's contributions to the sport but I'm not so sure about how knowledgeable he truly is. Not only about boxing itself but its history. His writings and speeches are often inaccurate and he doesn't even seem to care whether he is being factual or not, considering that he keeps repeating myths that have long since been proven wrong.

He is a good writer however and tells a story better than most people could and he did do great work with the Ring Magazine.

i agree that Bert comes across as a bit of a buffoon and like you say often comes out with claims which are untrue, yet it still remains that he is and has been heavily involved in this sport for decades, i am positive that if a TV company was looking for someone to talk about the history of this sport they would sooner choose Bert Sugar than you or myself, i personally see little wrong with his list other than he favors pre 1950s fighters. yet we would all include our own favorites over some ATG fighters.. Bert being a former editor of those two fight publications would have had access to archives of ringside reports from as far back as the 1920s so it is ******ity to underestimate his knowledge.

[DeepSleep]

Boxing - Ray Arcel , Gil Clancy & Eddie Futch never boxed yet they was the most knowledgable men in the history of the sport, i could name you a 100 successful football managers who never played the sport, the same goes for swimming, Horse Racing, Motor racing etc etc

Ray Arcel boxed.
http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...poet-doc-sock/

Gil Clancy boxed in the army. http://www.*********.com/judgejake/clancyfinal.htm
(Replace the ********* with f(igh)tbeat)

Eddie Futch was a golden gloves champ.
http://www.answers.com/topic/eddie-futch

[DeepSleep]

i agree that Bert comes across as a bit of a buffoon and like you say often comes out with claims which are untrue, yet it still remains that he is and has been heavily involved in this sport for decades, i am positive that if a TV company was looking for someone to talk about the history of this sport they would sooner choose Bert Sugar than you or myself, i personally see little wrong with his list other than he favors pre 1950s fighters. yet we would all include our own favorites over some ATG fighters.. Bert being a former editor of those two fight publications would have had access to archives of ringside reports from as far back as the 1920s so it is ******ity to underestimate his knowledge.

I don't question his knowledge of the history aspect of boxing. I question his actual knowledge of boxing itself. Like I said in my earlier post I bet Bert Sugar could ramble off the list of linear Heavyweight champs in order from the year 1890, but he still most likely couldn't tell you how to parry a jab correctly.

[Levcon8686]

JCC at 17 and Hopkins at 91 is hard for me to fathom.

[sonnyboyx2]

Ray Arcel boxed.
http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...poet-doc-sock/

Gil Clancy boxed in the army. http://www.*********.com/judgejake/clancyfinal.htm
(Replace the ********* with f(igh)tbeat)

Eddie Futch was a golden gloves champ.
http://www.answers.com/topic/eddie-futch

yeah.. and me and my young brother boxed in our back garden with some gloves an uncle gave us.

[DeepSleep]

yeah.. and me and my young brother boxed in our back garden with some gloves an uncle gave us.

You and your brother slapping each other silly is not boxing. All three of them have boxed in the amateurs with a trainer, or have boxed in the army. You got caught in a lie just own up to it...

[Nick Name]

Hi, I am new to the forum. I am a 27 year old trained amateur boxer, I've been training for 5 years and I was supposed to have my debut in March but I broke my hand. I will fight this next November if God wants, and let's hope it'll be alright

Anyway. At a first glance this list looks to me just like the "Rolling Stone's" list of 100 best guitarists of all times: number one is out of discussion (Hendrix/Robinson), the rest is pure snobby, high-hat, self-indulgent crap: he put Emile Griffith on 29 probably just out of simpathy because of his declared ****sexuality... But Griffith is a guy who lost to all the greats he ever faced... And he left out Nino Benvenuti (hall of famer who beat Griffith twice while they were both in their prime).
He also shows not to have sympathy for British boxing: there are some Brit guys who could be in that list (Lennox Lewis, Joe Calzaghe, Nigel Benn are the ones that come to my mind).
He left out the great Duilio Loi, and such a legend as Nicolino "Untouchable" Locche (must watch if you still haven't). And why not also De La Hoya deserved a place in that list.

They say that Bert Sugar knows his stuff: well, if his stuff is about cigars and straw hats, well yes he could know everything about it. Boxing? Better leave it to boxers...

I admit I don't know a few fighters from that list, but I bet that Sugar never took a single punch in his whole life.

[NChristo]

Hi, I am new to the forum. I am a 27 year old trained amateur boxer, I've been training for 5 years and I was supposed to have my debut in March but I broke my hand. I will fight this next November if God wants, and let's hope it'll be alright

First welcome to the forum and good luck with your career, I'm an AM boxer also but shattered my collar bone in January and have to wait until mid June for it to fully recover (apparently) before I can start again, why I started posting here.


Bert Sugar does know his stuff, no doubt, but his lists have always been kind of rubbish, opinionated where he rates the old timers and those he has grew up watching over others.
Thing that stuck out to me most after going through the list again is why the hell is Bob Fitzsimmons so low, I'd think even Bert would know to have him higher then 66.

[SBleeder]

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo ;Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. **** Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

[Nick Name]

First welcome to the forum and good luck with your career, I'm an AM boxer also but shattered my collar bone in January and have to wait until mid June for it to fully recover (apparently) before I can start again, why I started posting here.


Bert Sugar does know his stuff, no doubt, but his lists have always been kind of rubbish, opinionated where he rates the old timers and those he has grew up watching over others.
Thing that stuck out to me most after going through the list again is why the hell is Bob Fitzsimmons so low, I'd think even Bert would know to have him higher then 66.

NChristo: thanks for the welcome, and I make my best wishes for your recovery. I was supposed to make my debut in march but I broke my hand, and I'll have to wait til November to have a bout.

I didn't mean disrespect over mr. Sugar, he's a good historian but a bookworm could never know more than a bit about boxing... I am not a historian of boxing myself but I suspect that some of the names (like Emile Griffith at no. 29 or Ad Wolgast) are made more out of sympathy than for their real value. It is a very romantic list.
Anyway it's an interesting argument of discussion. So here's my personally reviewed list, as demanded by the topic:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson (as I said, just like Jimi Hendrix: no question about it)
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Wille Pep
4. Joe Louis
5. Harry Greb
6. Benny Leonard
7. Muhammad Ali
8. Roberto Duran
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Jack Johnson
11. Mickey Walker
12. Tony Canzoneri
13. Gene Tunney
14. Rocky Marciano
15. Joe Gans
16. Sam Langford
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Stanley Ketchel
20 Barney Ross
21, Jimmy McLarnin
22. Archie Moore
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Ezzard Charles
25. Sugar Ray Leonard
26. Joe Walcott (The original)
27. Jake LaMotta
28. Eder Jofre
29. Emile Griffith
30. Terry McGovern
31. George Foreman
32. Johnny Dundee
33. Jose Napoles
34. Pascual Perez
35. Billy Conn
36. Ruben Olivares
37. Joe Frazier
38. Tommy Loughran
39. Sandy Saddler
40. Kid Chocolate
41. Abe Attell
42. Evander Holyfield
43. George Dixon
44. Maxie Rosenbloom
45. Larry Holmes
46. Ted "Kid" Lewis
47. Marvin Hagler
48. Pernell Whitaker
49. Carlos Zarate
50. Thomas Hearns
51. Battling Nelson
52. Beau Jack
53. Ricardo Lopez
54. John L. Sullivan
55. Carlos Monzon
56. Alexis Arguello
57. Carmen Basillio
58. Pete Herman
59. Charley Burley
60. Ike Williams
61. Kid Gavilan
62. Jack Britton
63. **** Tiger
64. Pancho Villa
65. Panama Al Brown
66. Bob Fitszimmons
67. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68. Tiger Flowers
69. James J.Corbett
70. Tony Zale
71. Tommy Ryan
72. Georges Carpentier
73, Sonny Liston
74. "Kid" McCoy
75. Bob Foster
76. Freddie Welsh
77. Joe Jeanette
78. Jim Driscoll
79. Jersey Joe Walcott
80. Peter Jackson
81. Ad Wolgast
82. Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
83. Manuel Ortiz
84. James J. Jeffries
85. Salvador Sanchez
86. Jimmy Barry
87. Carlos Ortiz
88. Roy Jones Jr.
89. Wilfredo Gomez
90. Aaron Pryor
91. Bernard Hopkins
92. Mike Gibbons
93. Jack Delaney
94. Johnny Kilbane
95. Willie Ritchie
96. Wilfredo Benitez
97. Packey McFarland
98. Rocky Graziano
99. Lew Jenkins
100. Mike Tyson

Should be on the list: Lennox Lewis, Nicolino Locche, Nino Benvenuti, Duilio Loi, Oscar De La Hoya. Maybe also Floyd Patterson.