B. Leonard/Ali breakdown

[QueensburyRules]

It's really hard for a heavyweight to be seen in a favorable light in a P4P comparison with any smaller fighter, especially a lightweight or welterweight. The whole idea of "pound for pound" is to cut the big guys down to size.

But if there's one HW who can be considered among the P4P best boxers of all time, it's Ali. Which says a lot right there.

- -P4P been tossed out since SR Robinson, but the concept existed even before David and Goliath.

The first ever Ring P4P #1 was Mike Tyson in 89, a squat heavywt.

Just sayin'.

[Joe Beamish]

- -P4P been tossed out since SR Robinson, but the concept existed even before David and Goliath.

The first ever Ring P4P #1 was Mike Tyson in 89, a squat heavywt.

Just sayin'.

I get it. That version of Tyson probably deserved a high P4P ranking. That was his moment for sure.

On the other hand, Ali would still be up there in the P4P rankings. Other heavyweights including Tyson, not so much.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Who among Leonard's opposition was considered a killer of the ages? Ali fought several such men and destroyed them. This not a judgement, but I do point out that I know of no big time killers on Leonard's resume, not that they were not excellent or great fighters. They were not considered by the public to be killers like Dempsey and Duran and Hearns, for three instances, men who were so dangerous that the public actually worried for the lives of their opponents. Which names represent that on Leonard's ledger, please? Can you point them out. It is not my strongest era. Thanks.

I mean, Lew Tendler is considered one of the best punchers EVER. Oh, and he didn't suddenly gas-out or give up in fights like Liston and Foreman.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Leonard's opposition is definitely better. He fought opponents who were bona fide greats. Kilbane, Britton, Tendler, McLarnin: all guys who are top 10 quality in divisions far, far more talent-laden than Hw.

That being said, I think many Boxing fans are very harsh on heavier fighters. Anyone who's competed in sports, or worked as a coach very well knows that as bodysize increases coordination and stamina fall off. This applies to organisms far more atheletic than humans: you've never seen a flying Rhinocerous, right? Then again, have you ever heard of a sparrow driving a pride of Lions off a field?


So let's not exaggerate that Ali fought just a bunch of sloppy turds:

I'm not saying Frazier was as good as Armstrong P4P, but don't go trying to argue that his KO loss to Foreman is what puts distance between them. Armstrong was just as vulnerable to that style of puncher, but he had the good fortune of never meeting one. Even so, he was never going to meet a guy who had physics on his side, like Foreman did.

Oh, and before anyone says Joe was undersized, remember: he wasn't lythe. He suffered the catch 22 of being too heavy to be fast, and too light to push up against Foreman.


Same for Foreman. You can argue wasn't as complete a fighter as McLarnin or Tendler. But he probably was a little more refined w/ his footwork. He lacked their heart, but he also grossly lacked their experience. Foreman's style has proven so rare among Heavyweights across the past 125 years because a man that big shouldn't be able to be that busy. That in itself is as impressive as the damage it yields.

Even Norton, for how technically sound and complete fighter he was; across 15 rounds, no less. Deserves recognition for defying physics.


Asfor the skills of Leonard and Ali: Leonard kept his hands low, and his chin out. Some of that might've been baiting opponents, but he relied a lot on grappling and lateral movement. (I expected more from his jab.) He wanted fighters to rush him. He's impressive, but I think we can all evalute this was a cruder, more limited era.
Ali, came post-Tunney, post-Pep. He does a lot of things wrong, but gets away w/ it due to his speed, and his opponents remaining behind the curve in terms of advancement. I think both are actually over-rated defensively. Ali might've been P4P the better athlete, but Leonard was clearly the better KO puncher/finisher.

Leonard did more to advance the sport of Boxing. He had the better Ring IQ and knack for defensive Boxing.

[JAB5239]

- -Bored, so a random trip down memory lane uncovers this Gemstone.

Ain't seen ye auld jabber in a while, so maybe this interesting blast from the past rouses him from his slumber.

Always thought Ali overrated, but at p4p, IBRO rates him highly. For some reason Benny has fallen out of favor, perhaps being too antiquated to properly remember.

What do you genii think?

I've been around Queenie. I'm just to busy with work and kids to post much these days.

As far as the thread goes...I still think it's very debatable which great should rank higher. Pretty sure Leonard is only a few spots below Ali on the IBRO all time p4p list.

[QueensburyRules]

I've been around Queenie. I'm just to busy with work and kids to post much these days.

As far as the thread goes...I still think it's very debatable which great should rank higher. Pretty sure Leonard is only a few spots below Ali on the IBRO all time p4p list.

- -Your kids or others?

No matter, working with and developing the next gen for progression in the Pantheon as honorable as it gets.

Admire Benny greatly, but dunno that much about him other than IBRO rates him highly, just not as p4er.