Ezzard Charles or Ray Leonard?

[wmute]

Duran ducked McCallum(his mandatory) and Miss.Marvis ducked Graham(his mandatory).



You're accusing Leonard of avoiding fighters that he didn't have to fight and yet turn a blind eye to fighters that your idols did have to fight.

1) I am not turning a blind eye I am talking about oldtimers vs Leonard, not contemporary versus Leonard


2) "have to" fight is not really determined by mandatories (especially when you hold a number of belts)... That being said, While I am sure Duran wanted none of McCallum, it is hard to imagine Hagler "ducking" Graham.

[wmute]

Typical Duran apologist.The weight class that Duran fought Leonard at was the exact weight that he fought Iran barkley at.......regardless of which title was contested


Now granted,Duran picked up a gift decision against barkley,but Duran apologists such as yourself still claim what a great win and a great performance that it was by Duran.



You can't have it both ways,laddy.

Despite it being for a title in another weight division, Duran and Leonard fought at the same weight as Duran's last fight against Barkley where Duran won a middleweight title. Even though it is a somewhat controversial fight, he still fought competitively and managed to win a title.

We were talking better 168 record between Hearns and Leonard, right? So I welcome your point, but it has nothing to do with who had the better run at 168.

[Method Checker]

We were talking better 168 record between Hearns and Leonard, right? So I welcome your point, but it has nothing to do with who had the better run at 168.

Leonard still fought for the title in that division. He weighed in at 165, against Lalonde, two fights prior to the third Duran fight.

[wmute]

I was specifically talking about his opponents, rather than himself. Some of his opponents were HOFers because they beat each other and then lost to each other in series. Anyone who does that nowadays wouldn't likely become a hall of famer.

I see your point, especially when applied to Charles' opponents rather than himself. However I disagree with the statement about fighters splitting series, Marquez, Vazquez will be HOF (I hope). Mosley will be and he is 0-2 against Forrest and Winky.

Sorry. I thought you were talking about Hearns.

The Hagler rematch never happened because they couldn't agree on negotiations. Leonard "retired" and Hagler walked away fed up.

Leonard did retire a lot but that doesn't change what he accomplished.

It does not change what he accomplished, but it casts it in a different light. We are dead sure now that Charles beats Moore, not the same for Leonard over Hearns or Hagler (although in the former circumstance the lack of a rematch was not quite under his control)

You mean what was Charles doing past his prime? Fighting on to make a living. But the fact is that he lost most of his fights against top notch opponents.

No I mean what was Charles doing at the same age at which Leonard was fighting Duran and Hearns and starving Lalonde?

[wmute]

Leonard still fought for the title in that division. He weighed in at 165, against Lalonde, two fights prior to the third Duran fight.

I am missing your point here.

[TheGreatA]

1) I am not turning a blind eye I am talking about oldtimers vs Leonard, not contemporary versus Leonard


2) "have to" fight is not really determined by mandatories (especially when you hold a number of belts)... That being said, While I am sure Duran wanted none of McCallum, it is hard to imagine Hagler "ducking" Graham.

It's difficult to blame Duran for it since Steward signed the Hearns-Duran superfight behind McCallum's back. Did Duran duck McCallum to fight Hearns? Maybe but that was the move that made sense. This was the fight that the public wanted to see while McCallum was relatively unknown at the time, despite being the mandatory.

Hagler effectively retired after Mugabi and was only interested in fighting Leonard at that point.

[Method Checker]

I see your point, especially when applied to Charles' opponents rather than himself. However I disagree with the statement about fighters splitting series, Marquez, Vazquez will be HOF (I hope). Mosley will be and he is 0-2 against Forrest and Winky.

Marquez and Mosley (and MAYBE Vazquez) will most likely be HOFers because of what they accomplished in their careers.

Some of the HOFers that Charles beat were just top contenders who beat other top contenders or past-prime champions in multiple series when they had to make a living by fighting every month.

It does not change what he accomplished, but it casts it in a different light. We are dead sure now that Charles beats Moore, not the same for Leonard over Hearns or Hagler (although in the former circumstance the lack of a rematch was not quite under his control)

Disputes on negotiations shouldn't only be blamed on one fighter but both.

No I mean what was Charles doing at the same age at which Leonard was fighting Duran and Hearns and starving Lalonde?

He lost to an old Walcott twice.

[Method Checker]

I am missing your point here.

There was a comparison between what Hearns did in that division and what Leonard did in that division.

Leonard fought and beat Lalonde and Duran for a title in that division.

[wmute]

It's difficult to blame Duran for it since Steward signed the Hearns-Duran superfight behind McCallum's back. Did Duran duck McCallum to fight Hearns? Maybe but that was the move that made sense. This was the fight that the public wanted to see while McCallum was relatively unknown at the time, despite being the mandatory.

Hagler effectively retired after Mugabi and was only interested in fighting Leonard at that point.

Yes, I did not know the detail of the signing of the fight, but only a fool would have fought McCallum instead of Hearns, edit considering the money difference. I don't know about ducking, but why fight McCallum, if you can do without him?

[wmute]

There was a comparison between what Hearns did in that division and what Leonard did in that division.

Leonard fought and beat Lalonde and Duran for a title in that division.

As I noted above, that's not a relevant run, moreover he also lost to the guy we are comparing him to.

(If Duran weighed in at 160, that is not a very good sign for his relevance at 168)